Young family moving from NYC to Boston - advice please (Worcester: fit in, best neighborhoods)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Hello! We currently live in New York and my husband has a job opportunity in Boston (offices near Chinatown area?) we need to start looking for a place to live ...possibly for October/November 2010. We would appreciate any advice on Boston suburbs/inner suburbs as we don't know the area that well.
Our priorities: easy commute to Boston (public transportation would be ideal - under 40 minutes?), safe and family friendly (we have a 2yr old), good public schools, a community with a town center/pedestrian feel, close to nature/water, diversity, restaurants/cinema/yoga...does a place like this exist??
Budget: hoping to find a 2+br/2ba in 450-550k range, willing to pay more for entry into a great neighborhood...
From my research - it looks like areas such as Lexington, Winchester, Newton, Wellesley, Dedham, or Hingham may fit the bill? We welcome all advice - thank you in advance! (Also any tips on what to expect in terms of major NYC to Boston differences (i.e cost of living or culture changes...)
I lived in NYC for a long time. Half my family is from there and the other half from here, so I know both places like an insider.
The towns you've named are nice. The one that doesn't quite fit is Dedham, which doesn't have schools as highly rated as the others and has some less attractive parts.
Given your price range and desire for 2 BR, Newton might be a good place to start looking. There are a lot of condos in 2-family houses in Newton in your price range. There are also a fair number of NY-NJ refugees. That is less true in, say, Hingham or Winchester, which have more locals. You also may not find as many condos in the other towns you've named. It tends more to single family homes. Newton has highly rated schools, a number of downtown areas in different neighborhoods of the city, and it's right next to Boston. Very safe, active but quiet, it has yoga and an independent cinema. Newton is generally a very attractive and upscale town, but it's got some more down-to-earth traditionally blue collar sections too.
Commute: Chinatown is close to South Station. (There are three major commuter rail stations in Boston. North Station, with trains running north; South Station, with trains running south and due west; and Back Bay station. Back Bay is not a terminus strictly speaking, but several of the train lines running out of South Station stop there as well.)
The commute from Newton is easiest with a quick (20 mins) ride to South Station on the commuter rail from one of three stations in the northern part of town (Auburndale, West Newton, or Newtonville). Outside of rush hours, though, the train skips these stations. In that case, farther south in Newton it's possible to get the D branch of the Green Line. That's a subway/trolley and it's a slower ride into Boston (40 mins), but it's there as a backup if you need to get into town in the afternoon.
From Hingham, there's a train to South Station (about 35-40 mins) but it does not run as frequently as other lines. It's really bad in the evening, when they have a train at 5:45, 6:38, then not until 8:25 and the next and last is at 10 pm. Makes it tough if you miss the 6:38 by a couple of minutes, and really tough to get home if you spend the evening in the city past 10. The other option is a 35-minute ferry ride, which is fun. Ferry stops running at 8:30 pm, though, and it goes to Rowes Wharf (farther from Chinatown than South Station is).
The advantages of Hingham are its location near the water and its beauty. Newton is attractive, but more filled in than Hingham. Parts appear woodsy and on many roads Hingham has the feel of an unspoiled New England colonial village. Downside is that it can be materialistic in a keep-up-with-the-Joneses kind of way. The center is charming, but far smaller than any of the downtowns in Newton's villages.
Lexington also has the classic New England town center, but more mid-20th century suburbia filling it in than in Hingham. It's got very good, but somewhat high pressure, schools. A lot of activities and a good sense of community, but higher property taxes to pay for it (still manageable by suburban NY-NJ standards). A fairly decent-sized town center with shops. There's a fairly sizeable academic and scientist population, and it's more Jewish and Asian than some other area towns (not really more so than Newton though). Newton and Lexington are the most diverse towns you've listed, but bascially all Boston suburbs with well-regarded school districts are heavily white. The area as a whole is not as diverse as the NYC area.
Lexington has no commuter rail in town, or really even that close to it, so many people sit in traffic trying to get to the Alewife station, which is the end of the Red Line subway. The parking at Alewife is $7 or $8 a day and fills up early (before 8 AM).
Winchester is, in my opinion, more attractive than Lexington overall (outside of the 200-year old parts of Lexington). It's fairly affluent but not exclusively so. It has a cute town center and a lot of attractive homes from the early (and not the mid-) 20th century. Winchester has the train into North Station, requiring a transfer to the Orange Line subway. But that shouldn't be as much of a concern because it's only 15 mins to Boston from Winchester, so the total commute wouldn't be too bad. The schools are good, but I think the town hasn't quite maintained it's playgrounds as well as, say, Lexington.
Wellesley is very attractive but very upscale. It looks somewhat similar to Winchester but it's more upscale. I've heard of snobbery or materialism issues there too (some would say "Stepford"). On the same commuter line as Newton, but farther out (35-40 mins train time to South Station). Beyond the reach of the subway, but at least the train stops at Wellesley's stops all day.
Other towns to consider are Belmont and Arlington, which offer a decent number of condos in your range as well. Arlington is near Alewife (end of the Red Line). Belmont has two commuter rail stations. You can take the train to North Station (15-20 mins as from Winchester) and then the Orange Line, or transfer from the commuter rail to the Red Line at Porter Square in Cambridge.
Belmont also has very good schools and easy access to Cambridge and Boston. Part of town is a very wealthy estate area, part upscale suburb, part two-family homes in a fairly urbanized area. Arlington was, when I was a kid there, more blue collar. Today it's got a lot of professionals and it's a hip choice for people who move out of the city, but not too far out. A couple of indy cinemas, a burgeoning restaurant scene, good schools (especially the lower grades).
Also think about Needham, tucked next to Newton and Wellesley. It's also got very good schools and it's a nice town without much snob factor given the average income. It's on a commuter rail line to South Station, but it takes about 40 mins unfortunately.
Comparing Boston to NYC. In some ways it won't be a culture shock. Boston is an old, historic city with pretty good mass transit and walkable streets. It can be fast-paced and people don't chat much with strangers. All of that will be less jarring to you than to someone moving here from Iowa.
But Boston is not NYC. It's far smaller, which makes it much more manageable but also means there are not as many world class museums, restaurants, etc. Fortunately, there are world class museums and very good restaurants. Just not as many.
There are major benefits, to me, of the smaller scale. The place is less overwhelming and oppressive. You can live in a quiet place and still have a reasonable commute. Also, New England offers a huge number of beautiful places (towns and natural beauty) within an easy day trip of Boston. There are nice places near NYC, but in my opinion not as many and it was a huge hassle to get to them. Greater Boston has traffic, especially at rush hour, but you don't have to sit in traffic for hours on an expressway even at 3 AM or on a Saturday morning.
Despite the "Taxachusetts" rep, you should see a huge drop in taxes. Income taxes are far lower in Mass. than for someone paying both NYS and NYC taxes. Property taxes in the Boston suburbs also pale in comparison to NYC suburbs. Housing costs are lower, particularly per square foot, and the condo fees around here are nothing like the huge co-op maintenance people pay in Manhattan. A lot of things in daily life are somewhat cheaper here too. Bottom line: COL is high compared to most of the US but pretty low compared to NYC.
Other differences. Things close early. Really early. Even in a close-in, built-up suburb like Newton, it's dark and largely traffic free at 9 pm. There are all-night stores but not that many. People also tend to rise and go to work earlier.
It can be tough to fit in in Boston. The city of Boston, Cambridge, etc. have a lot of students or transplants, but many suburban towns are overwhelmingly populated by Boston-area natives. People from the area can be reserved around strangers and it can take a long while to break the ice. A town like Newton is probably easier to break into than some others, since it's bigger and there are more people there from other places. And having small kids helps, but a lot of new arrivals feel isolated when they first get here. It's important to get involved in things and be patient about making friends.
A lot of people become accustomed to a certain lifestyle in NY and are kind of surprised when things in Boston are different. Bostonians generally love Boston and many don't love NYC too much. They really don't like hearing how backwards Boston is, or how much better everything is in NYC.
Boston is more low key. There's a lot of affluence and conspicuous consumption has become more common, but a modest New England ethic still prevails to some extent. People tend to be quieter and less flashy than in NYC. The ideal aesthetic is elegant yet simple, not the bigger-better-faster-more you often see in NYC. People don't dress as flashily and, despite the political liberalism, there's a prevailing personal conservatism. Flashy and loud people are more likely to be seen as obnoxious than interesting or colorful, and it's not a place many people move to become famous.
It's hard to learn your way around. The roads have no rhyme or reason, and each neighborhood repeats the same street names. There are dozens of Beacon, Tremont, Boylston, Winter, Summer, etc. Street names also change from one block to the next. Streets are narrow. Virtually all of Boston and Cambridge is like lower Manhattan in this respect. Signs can be nonexistent and many people will assume knowledge you're unlikely to have. For instance, virtually every major intersecton is a "square." People will refer to the most obscure of squares as if you know them.
You'll have an easier time once you master local geography and learn some of the more unique terms. Boston has its own vocabulary. RMV, not DMV. Frappe, not milkshake (milkshake is something different). Rotary, not traffic circle.
Did not mean to write War and Peace, but it's a topic I've had a lot of occasion to think about.
Hi,
Would strongly recommend Brookline. Top schools, easy walk to public transportation to downtown Boston, plenty of shops/restaurants/theater/etc within short walking distance of your home. You should be able to get a decent 1000 sq ft 2-br condo within your price range there, though many buildings may not allow dogs. It would be a nice transition from NYC I think. It's about a 30 minute commute to Chinatown via the trolley/subway, which runs every 5-10 minutes.
I don't know where you from in NYC but we recently moved back to MA from Riverdale (end of the #1 train) in April after living 5 years in NYC; we lived in Crown Heights in Brooklyn for a months before we bought our co-op in Riverdale. I'm from MA though but haven't lived in the state for 10 years. I have a 4.5-year-old. One of the reasons why we decide to return to MA was due to the school situation in NYC; it's a complete mess.
I'll say that you will not have as much sticker shock here as NYC. Many of your bills going to be less - electric (our ConEdison bills are nearly double), subway and/or bus fares (MTA are a bunch of pirates), taxes, co-op fees, and the list goes on. So we have the advantage moving from NYC to MA that people from other parts of the country do not enjoy.
With your budget, you should be able to find a condo or single family home in some of the best neighborhoods already mentioned - Brookline, Wellesley, Newton, Needham, Belmont, Lexington, Hingham are good choices. These are good communities with good school systems, though they tend to be pricey as well. I agree about Dedham; it's the odd one out.
Boston Magazine ranks public high schools and these tend to correlate to wealth, housing, race, etc.
Public Schools Chart - Boston Magazine (http://www.bostonmagazine.com/boston/public2009 - broken link) - which might help. MA publishes a list of MCAS results for towns and cities which might be helpful for elementary schools. There's also GreatSchools - Public and Private School Ratings, Reviews and Parent Community which rates schools.
In addition to the places posted before, I'd suggest Arlington. The town is diverse and the Brackett school is a top elementary school. Arlington borders Cambridge and you can catch the red subway line. It's more middle class than the other places mentioned.
Sharon is another possible alternative, though it's Jewish and more rural than the other places mentioned.
Swampscott might be possible too, if you'd like to be on the ocean but be able to take the commuter rail to Boston.
Since we've moved back to MA, we've been very happy. We've got easier access to the beaches, mountains, parks, Boston and other cities, and lovely towns without the whole city following you. Although I know MA is considerably whiter than NYC, I'd say it's much more diverse in some places than it was 10 years ago.
On the whole I agree with the previous poster who said you will not find it as jarring to move here - unless you're a real die-hard NYC person or prefer concrete.
Thank you everyone, this is amazing feedback - and so quick!
holden125: your tips on commuting are so helpful for someone who doesn't know the T/rail subtleties, appreciated. and town reccs and descriptions were great - I guess maybe I meant Needham not Dedham? Thanks for the heads up on Hingam commuting and for mentioning Belmont and Arlington - will definitely check those areas out. A couple more questions....are any of the south shore (or north shore) towns easily commutable to south station? Also, in terms of housing stock, if we are more interested in single family homes (vs. condo/TH) do you know which towns would be best for the 450/550k range?
Thanks also for the pointers on major differences to expect - also appreciated - sounds like you have a good feel for both places...thanks for taking the time to help the newbies navigate.
wivenhoe: thanks for the overview...Yes, I think the kid in the city is the tipping factor for us too - we are coming from the upper east side currently, but I would say in general we are more of a Brooklyn family given that info (and that we would prefer single home vs. condo/TH) - any other towns to add to our list? or put at the top of the list?
also two random questions while I have the experts ears...is the weather any better on south shore vs. rest of Boston? and is it a pain to travel north from the metro-western or south shore towns?
All the towns you listed originally are affluent towns with expensive housing on average. Wellesley in particular catches my attention as a town where it's going to be a challenge, to put it mildly, to find a detached house in your price range.
As far as geography, Hingham is the one town on your original list which is south of Boston. It could be that you meant Needham when you wrote Dedham. Needham is similar to the other towns you've asked about. Another town generally toward the south or southwest of Boston that you may want to investigate further is Norwood. I don't know Norwood well enough to be intimately familiar with the reputation of its schools, or to know specifically about whether the town has many of the activities you would like to have available locally, but I know that Norwood is generally a clean, pleasant town, which I believe has a fairly substantial downtown.
Usually, areas north of Boston are not really conveniently accessible from the South Shore, at least not during commuting hours. You generally want to avoid having to commute from north of Boston to south of Boston, or vice versa. If you try to drive right through Boston, you'll be slowed by traffic inbound toward Boston before emerging on the other side. If you try to drive around, you'll be slowed by traffic feeding into roads leading into Boston. From the western suburbs it will generally be an easier commute to the north than it would be from the south, but still may not be great. It's more of a case-by-case basis--which town you'd be commuting from, and which town would be your destination--as to whether the commute from west to north would be more or less reasonable.
Regarding your weather question, if you want to stay within a 40-minute commute from downtown, living south of Boston would probably not make for substantially milder winters. As you get farther down the South Shore, average snowfall totals do become significantly lower than the are to the west and north of Boston. Well to the south, it seems that the pattern many winters is a light enough snowfall to melt with the next mild spell, then a little more snow, followed by more melting, while to the north, and especially the west, there are many winters when the ground stays covered with snow for most or all of the winter. But, you'd probably have to be farther south than a 40-minute commute from downtown to see a really significant difference compared to the northern or western 'burbs.
If you would prefer a single family home, you may consider Natick, Walpole, Salem, Beverly, maybe Ipswich, and Concord (being the most expensive out of these). I would throw Norwood in too.
All of these towns are on the commuter rail and offer cheaper housing (except Concord) than Wellesley, Winchester, and Belmont. All of these towns have walkable town centers with shops and restaurants. They are a bit further out from Boston but 1/2 an hour or so on the commuter rail to Boston so if you may find housing within walking distance to the train station as well as the town center with the shops and restaurants. Although Newton and Brookline are closer to Boston and on the subway, depending on where you're traveling, it can take you longer on the green subway line than on the commuter rail; no express MTA trains here.
Salem has decent elementary schools; Saltonstall was (and maybe still is) a magnet school featured on NBC Today. However, I knew many parents who sent their kids to parochial, private, or even to other public schools with school choice once they reached high school. You also have a few years before your son is in grade school.
We lived in Salem for 8 years before we moved to NYC and had our son. I personally loved it and the North Shore, but it was difficult if we wanted to go to Cambridge or Newton on the train or drive to the South Shore (Hingham, Plymouth).
I agree with the North Shore, South Shore, west of Boston accessibility issue. West of Boston has the greatest accessibility as you can go north or south fairly easily. From Rte 128/Rte 2 exit, it's about 1/2 hour without traffic to Danvers/Salem exit on Rte 128 - emphasis is on the without traffic part.
Yes, Wellesley is pricey but I've seen more single family homes under $550K there than in Belmont, for instance. I've been looking for us! I keep drawing our circle around some of these towns too. Of course, the condition and location may not be so desirable but you find some a home with a little updating needed that's within your budget and meets your criteria.
I'd say if you prefer buying a single family home, it's definitely doable with your budget and your criteria, though not necessarily in places Belmont, if you look around. Arlington, for one, has a lot of single homes within your budget as does Natick; Winchester less so but there are some.
As for the weather, well MA gets snow and sometimes a lot of it, though this can vary widely from year to year. Sometimes the coast gets pummeled; other times inland get pummeled. Worcester and Fitchburg areas usually get more snow than other areas but this can vary due to the type of storm and ocean effect. Some years there's hardly any snow in MA, which I know might seem hard to believe.
If you want to avoid snow or get only a few inches of snow, you have to live in Newport, RI or South County, RI (Narragansett, Charlestown, Westerly) and parts of Cape Cod. New Haven, CT also seems to be a line for less snow, but who wants to live there unless you're at Yale?
Since you have a little one, I'd also pay attention to the playground issue and community amenities (pools, Y, camps, after school stuff, recreation/community centers). Some towns, such as Lexington, seem to do a better job providing playgrounds and updating them. Some towns, again such as Lexington, also seem to provide more recreational and community opportunities than others and therefore it seems your taxes go a bit further.
Some towns are also more welcoming to families than others. Arlington being one of them.
I forgot to mention that you might want to take a look at Wakefield and Reading if you prefer single family housing. Both towns are on the commuter rail to Boston and fall within your budget, though less affluent than Winchester or Wellesley.
I think Reading has a Blue Ribbon elementary school too.
I grew up in NY (city) live in Winchester, and love it, really love it, check out the family action network for resources- nice small town and awesome commute (to relate its like living in a small Rye NY or Ridgewood NJ but with a 10-15 minute commute to the city)
also two random questions while I have the experts ears...is the weather any better on south shore vs. rest of Boston? and is it a pain to travel north from the metro-western or south shore towns?
Whether the weather is "better" depends on what you mean by "better." It snows more than in NYC both north and south of Boston, but tends to snow more on the North Shore. Ogre's right that the big difference is farther south, toward the South Coast (New Bedford, Fall River) and the Cape. And even if it's snowing on the North Shore but not on the South Shore, of course it's not going to be balmy. It will most likely be cold rain. Personally I prefer the snow. It gives the classic New England winter look.
For a commute, it is a huge pain to commute from the North Shore to the South Shore. Either one to Metro-West is not a picnic either. To just travel for a day trip, it's not as bad though I find 93 though Boston and Route 3 on the South Shore have more traffic on weekends than other roads.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
??
Brookline
