Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No, it's not really important considering that Africans and West Indians combined make up less than 8 percent of the black population of the country. And even then, the African and West Indian populations tend to concentrate largely in the big cities that are also popular with Black Americans. DC and NYC easily have the largest African populations along with Houston (also popular with American Blacks). NYC and Miami are obviously the major West Indian hotspots with every other city in N.A. not called Toronto taking a large and comfortable backseat.
Right.
Not really. After NYC and Miami, Boston is easily comes in 3rd or 4th in terms of West Indian population. I think you are highly underestimating the influence these populations have in the Boston area, more so than African Americans. West Indians aren't flocking to the exact same cities as African Americans. Think about it, many African Americans in the U.S. have roots in the South, roots that recent migrants from the Caribbean and Africa don't have. The pull isn't there for many of them to move to the South. Of course, some may end up there after relocation, but it's not an initial destination for many blacks coming to America.
As for the needlessly sarcastic "right", well, I lived in Boston the majority of my life and was once a young black college student, so yeah, I'm gonna stand by my statement there.
Again, it seems like all the whiners are AA and it doesn't matter that Boston has a Chinatown and a Little Italy. And the "downtown" is so small that there really isn't any area for having other blocks devoted to one race or culture. AND... historically, we never had a mini Harlem, so where would you put it now? And would you want to force one in somewhere? And if so, where would you like your mini Harlem to be?
And as to the tourist attractions, we are big on our USS Constitution, the Tea Party Ship and the Freedom Trail. Most of Boston's major tourist attractions have no historical AA presence. And there wasn't any Asian or Hispanic presence either. Blacks, Asians and Hispanics also weren't at the Mayflower landing at Plymouth Rock nor in Old Sturbridge Village, and you can't rewrite history just because you want AA to be represented there now.
Downtown Boston real estate is super expensive and small, so most other small pockets of other cultures develop outside of Boston proper. There are little clusters of Brazilians everywhere, with their neighborhoods and shops. And for a start, the AA community in Boston could start off by opening their own little mom and pop businesses elsewhere first, saving their money before making a go in downtown Boston. The Asian, Italians, Greeks, and Brazilian immigrants don't seem to have a problem having their own small businesses, so the AA should be able to accomplish this also.
And I don't think that Boston is unwelcoming to blacks, I think that we are neutral to welcoming about their presence. We are neutral in the sense that if black businesses popped up in downtown Boston, no one would fight them coming. Honestly, I wouldn't care at all if a whole bunch of them opened up downtown. And in terms of welcoming, well we have a black governor and the METCO school program.
Otherwise, I think that I would be really annoyed if there was some sort of affirmative action where grants and other special treatment were handed out to AA wanting to open businesses in downtown Boston. And it's because historically those handout programs don't work. I feel that change has to come naturally and gradually in order for those improvements to work and become permanent. When you rush to make social changes, those programs fail and at great expense to the taxpayers.
Right now, I do think that in all grade schools, particularly in areas where the chronically poor live, the students should have several years of REAL home economics classes so that they can learn how to plan their goals and learn to save towards them. Too many of the young black people I work with have zero clues on how to manage their money. They are all about instant gratification and don't have the patience to wait to pay for a luxury item out of their nonexistent savings account. It's all about either buying on credit or living week to week on their paychecks. And that is very sad and worrisome to me.
And BTW, a question for the AA in this thread... how would you feel about "black" themed bars and clubs owned by whites, Asians or Hispanics? Would still patronize them? Or protest them...
Not really. After NYC and Miami, Boston is easily comes in 3rd or 4th in terms of West Indian population.
Yes, really. First, West Indians do not "flock" to Boston the way Black Americans (and West Indians for that matter) "flock" to Atlanta, unless, that is, you consider 39,536 people out of a total black population of 179,230 to be "flocking." West Indians "flock" to NYC and Miami, which both have populations numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Boston is merely a city where a sizable percentage of the population happens to be West Indian. It's far from being the West Indian haven you're making it out to be. Boston is not the West Indian equivalent of Washington, DC or even Chicago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eevee
I think you are highly underestimating the influence these populations have in the Boston area, more so than African Americans. West Indians aren't flocking to the exact same cities as African Americans. Think about it, many African Americans in the U.S. have roots in the South, roots that recent migrants from the Caribbean and Africa don't have. The pull isn't there for many of them to move to the South. Of course, some may end up there after relocation, but it's not an initial destination for many blacks coming to America.
West Indians are moving to the same hotspots as African Americans, principally Washington, DC and Atlanta, GA. By and large, West Indians generally feel that cities that offer good opportunities for "black" Americans are by extension good for West Indians. Historically, those cities have had small West Indian populations, but they both have sizable populations in 2013 (with DC's being a good bit larger). DC obviously has Howard University that attracts a good number of Caribbean students. And DC is also close to NYC, which helps. West Indian families are leaving New York to move to Atlanta because of the low cost of living (and black colleges there) and the fact that West Indians generally assimilate and become more similar to Black Americans over time. You will find a good number of West Indians attending megachurches in metro Atlanta.
I mean, Atlanta went from having a Caribbean population of virtually 10 people (exaggerating, obvi) in the 1980s to having a legitimately good West Indian Carnival today. There are a lot of West Indians from New York and South Florida moving there. And they're moving there partly because of the city's reputation as a black "mecca."
Yes, really. First, West Indians do not "flock" to Boston the way Black Americans (and West Indians for that matter) "flock" to Atlanta, unless, that is, you consider 39,536 people out of a total black population of 179,230 to be "flocking." West Indians "flock" to NYC and Miami, which both have populations numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Boston is merely a city where a sizable percentage of the population happens to be West Indian. It's far from being the West Indian haven you're making it out to be. Boston is not the West Indian equivalent of Washington, DC or even Chicago.
West Indians are moving to the same hotspots as African Americans, principally Washington, DC and Atlanta, GA. By and large, West Indians generally feel that cities that offer good opportunities for "black" Americans are by extension good for West Indians. Historically, those cities have had small West Indian populations, but they both have sizable populations in 2013 (with DC's being a good bit larger). DC obviously has Howard University that attracts a good number of Caribbean students. And DC is also close to NYC, which helps. West Indian families are leaving New York to move to Atlanta because of the low cost of living (and black colleges there) and the fact that West Indians generally assimilate and become more similar to Black Americans over time. You will find a good number of West Indians attending megachurches in metro Atlanta.
I mean, Atlanta went from having a Caribbean population of virtually 10 people (exaggerating, obvi) in the 1980s to having a legitimately good West Indian Carnival today. There are a lot of West Indians from New York and South Florida moving there. And they're moving there partly because of the city's reputation as a black "mecca."
Yeah, sorry hon, you lost me when you mentioned Chicago. If you think the West Indian population is better represented in Chicago than in Boston, then we might as well stop this conversation now. Speaking as a 1st generation Haitian American born and raised in Boston and currently living in Chicago, I find that idea borderline laughable. Like I said, I'll stand by my original points based on my own 20+ years of personal experience.
Yeah, sorry hon, you lost me when you mentioned Chicago. If you think the West Indian population is better represented in Chicago than in Boston, then we might as well stop this conversation now. Speaking as a 1st generation Haitian American born and raised in Boston and currently living in Chicago, I find that idea borderline laughable. Like I said, I'll stand by my original points based on my own 20+ years of personal experience.
Well, it's evident you missed my point. I said that Boston is not the West Indian equivalent of Chicago (for African Americans, that is). Basically, Boston ain't to West Indians what Chicago is to black folks. Boston is a footnote for the West Indian population compared to NYC and Miami. Chicago, on the other hand, is a heavy hitter for Black Americans being the home of Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey and a fairly large black middle class. Chicago is a city that African Americans truly get excited about (not to DC or ATL levels obviously) whereas there's a HUGE gap between the enthusiasm displayed by West Indians towards Boston and Brooklyn. Boston is FAR from being a West Indian "mecca."
I didn't say that "the West Indian population is better represented in Chicago than in Boston." You should read a bit more carefully. It's not like you didn't have time.
And again, West Indians tend to assimilate into the larger black population over time. Even if you go to Trinidad Carnival or Crop Over and eat pelau or macaroni pie at least once a week, most West Indians will still date and marry African Americans (ahem, Rihanna), go to black churches, go to black clubs, fraternize with African Americans (ahem, Biggie Smalls), watch and appear on black TV shows and movies (ahem, Tatyana Ali and Nia Long). So they end up sharing many of the same interests as Black Americans. Cities like Atlanta and Washington, DC are now becoming prime destinations for West Indians, too. It's just that those cities have historically had small West Indian populations and very large AA populations so the West Indian presence is not as pronounced. And it probably never will be. But West Indians have been moving down there for a long time.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 03-19-2013 at 04:19 PM..
Well, it's evident you missed my point. I said that Boston is not the West Indian equivalent of Chicago (for African Americans, that is). Basically, Boston ain't to West Indians what Chicago is to black folks. Boston is a footnote for the West Indian population compared to NYC and Miami. Chicago, on the other hand, is a heavy hitter for Black Americans being the home of Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey and a fairly large black middle class. Chicago is a city that African Americans truly get excited about (not to DC or ATL levels obviously) whereas there's a HUGE gap between the enthusiasm displayed by West Indians towards Boston and Brooklyn. Boston is FAR from being a West Indian "mecca."
I didn't say that "the West Indian population is better represented in Chicago than in Boston." You should read a bit more carefully. It's not like you didn't have time.
And again, West Indians tend to assimilate into the larger black population over time. Even if you go to Trinidad Carnival or Crop Over and eat pelau or macaroni pie at least once a week, most West Indians will still date and marry African Americans (ahem, Rihanna), go to black churches, go to black clubs, fraternize with African Americans (ahem, Biggie Smalls), watch and appear on black TV shows and movies (ahem, Tatyana Ali and Nia Long). So they end up sharing many of the same interests as Black Americans. Cities like Atlanta and Washington, DC are now becoming prime destinations for West Indians, too. It's just that those cities have historically had small West Indian populations and very large AA populations so the West Indian presence is not as pronounced. And it probably never will be. But West Indians have been moving down there for a long time.
That sort of assimilation can take generations for some groups and by that time, while they may be considered West Indian by descent, they themselves may not consider themselves to be West Indian and just call themselves "black Americans", further blurring the lines between the groups. It takes a few generations before some will break out of their ethnic comfort zones and embrace African American culture. Until then, they tend to stick within their own ethnic enclaves, attend their own churches (especially if their native language isn't English), and patronize their own businesses. Trust me, it's a bit of a cultural shock when you start stepping outside this close circle. For example, most people in my family expect me to marry a Haitian/Haitian American man and still express shock when I go outside this expectation, even if the guy is an AA. I found this to be true with many of my peers and other 1st generation Americans I've encountered. And unfortunately, there's a sizable portion of black Africans and West Indians that look down on African Americans and actively try to distance themselves from them. These folks may never consider the South for this very reason unless there's a strong economic reason to move there. For them, it may not be a cultural reason, but a financial one.
I wouldn't cling to Hollywood examples much, since Hollywood is such a tiny demographic. Even if all of the celebrities you noted were born and raised in the Caribbean or Africa, being in Hollywood will limit their ability to express their ethnic/cultural background.
As to your first point, again, I disagree with you completely and I think you are still underestimating the appeal Boston has to this group. Boston is far from a "footnote" for West Indians any more than it is for Italians. Obviously, it can't compare to NYC (what city can?) or Miami (which, just due to sheer proximity, gets a lot of immigrants from the area). In much the same why African Americans from the South emigrated to the Chicago area, so to did West Indians move up to Boston/NYC from Miami. Frankly, I know plenty of people of West Indian descent that have great enthusiasm for Boston, definitely a lot more than for Atlanta and many cities in the South. And while Boston is "mecca" for West Indians (a point I never made, btw), it's more so than Atlanta and parts of the South (the point I was originally making).
That sort of assimilation can take generations for some groups and by that time, while they may be considered West Indian by descent, they themselves may not consider themselves to be West Indian and just call themselves "black Americans", further blurring the lines between the groups. It takes a few generations before some will break out of their ethnic comfort zones and embrace African American culture.
No, it does not take generations. It didn't take Rihanna generations to break out of her "ethnic shell" and date Bad Boy Chris Brown. It didn't take generations for Eric Holder to assimilate and become Attorney General. It didn't take generations for the Notorious B.I.G. to become one of the most revered figures among African American youth. It didn't take generations for Nia Long to become forever enshrined in African American cinema history when she adopted the role of Nina Mosley in Love Jones. It didn't take generations for the children of West Indian immigrants (and often West Indian immigrants themselves) to join black fraternities and join black campus groups. I see this a lot on C-D when people try to create all of this space between Black Americans and West Indians, but at the end of the day, both groups see each other as "black." And the social circles of second generation West Indian-Americans (and sometimes first) overlap to a great degree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eevee
Until then, they tend to stick within their own ethnic enclaves, attend their own churches (especially if their native language isn't English), and patronize their own businesses. Trust me, it's a bit of a cultural shock when you start stepping outside this close circle.
This isn't 100% accurate either. You're making it seem like the relationship between AAs and West Indians is like the relationship between AAs and the Polish (virtually none). For most second-generation West-Indian Americans, they will often look and act like any Black American. Most people will probably just think you are Black American if you don't tell them. Conversely, a Black American can claim to be of West Indian heritage and nobody would really know. It's usually only a name like Braithwaite or Cumberpatch that gives it away. Or sometimes people will have phenotypical features (i.e., dougla) that give it away. But by and large, a second-generation West Indian American is going to the same parties as Black Americans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eevee
For example, most people in my family expect me to marry a Haitian/Haitian American man and still express shock when I go outside this expectation, even if the guy is an AA. I found this to be true with many of my peers and other 1st generation Americans I've encountered. And unfortunately, there's a sizable portion of black Africans and West Indians that look down on African Americans and actively try to distance themselves from them. These folks may never consider the South for this very reason unless there's a strong economic reason to move there. For them, it may not be a cultural reason, but a financial one.
I'm sure you might want there to be distance between the two. But this West Indian/Black American "tension" has become about as played out as the Light Skinned/Dark Skinned rivalry in the Black American community. I mean, maybe there was a lot of tension when Jamaicans were filling up Harlem in the 1920s, but in 2013 they're generally accepted as part of the fabric of the larger American Black community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eevee
I cling to Hollywood example much, since Hollywood is such a tiny demographic. Even if all of the celebrities you noted were born and raised in the Caribbean or Africa, being in Hollywood will limit their ability to express their ethnic/cultural background.
What does that have to do with the community they identify with? Blacks in Memphis see Biggie Smalls as being one of "them." The man is worshipped in inner cities from Coast to Coast. He's part of the black community the same way Barack Obama is.
As to your first point, again, I disagree with you completely and I think you are still underestimating the appeal Boston has to this group. Boston is far from a "footnote" for West Indians any more than it is for Italians. Obviously, it can't compare to NYC (what city can?) or Miami (which, just due to sheer proximity, gets a lot of immigrants from the area). In much the same why African Americans from the South emigrated to the Chicago area, so to did West Indians move up to Boston/NYC from Miami. Frankly, I know plenty of people of West Indian descent that have great enthusiasm for Boston, definitely a lot more than for Atlanta and many cities in the South. And while Boston is "mecca" for West Indians (a point I never made, btw), it's more so than Atlanta and parts of the South (the point I was originally making).
You do realize I am part of this "group," right? I mean, my moniker is BajanYankee after all.
Boston has about as much appeal among West Indians as a whole as St. Louis has among African Americans. Historically, the two cities attracted these respective populations because of industry, but the present-day populations should not be construed as any indication that they are particularly good cities for those populations.
In terms of raw numbers, the West Indian population in Boston is miniscule relative to the population of the region. You're already dealing with a relatively small overall black population as it is. Yet West Indians are supposed to get excited about being a minority among an already tiny minority in a predominantly non-Hispanic white metro area. Please.
In other words, West Indians aren't going to run off to Boston for the 36,000 other West Indians in the city limits (and the 90,000 or so in the Metro area). Yeah, they're there, but why the hell would you go there if there's NYC? And why go there when you can get the West Indian influence in DC (albeit smaller) but enjoy the significant upside of having a large and robust black professional class (whom West Indians also consider themselves a part of). You make it seem like West Indians only want to associate with other West Indians and not Black Americans when that's hardly the case.
Yes, really. First, West Indians do not "flock" to Boston the way Black Americans (and West Indians for that matter) "flock" to Atlanta, unless, that is, you consider 39,536 people out of a total black population of 179,230 to be "flocking." West Indians "flock" to NYC and Miami, which both have populations numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Boston is merely a city where a sizable percentage of the population happens to be West Indian. It's far from being the West Indian haven you're making it out to be. Boston is not the West Indian equivalent of Washington, DC or even Chicago.
West Indians are moving to the same hotspots as African Americans, principally Washington, DC and Atlanta, GA. By and large, West Indians generally feel that cities that offer good opportunities for "black" Americans are by extension good for West Indians. Historically, those cities have had small West Indian populations, but they both have sizable populations in 2013 (with DC's being a good bit larger). DC obviously has Howard University that attracts a good number of Caribbean students. And DC is also close to NYC, which helps. West Indian families are leaving New York to move to Atlanta because of the low cost of living (and black colleges there) and the fact that West Indians generally assimilate and become more similar to Black Americans over time. You will find a good number of West Indians attending megachurches in metro Atlanta.
I mean, Atlanta went from having a Caribbean population of virtually 10 people (exaggerating, obvi) in the 1980s to having a legitimately good West Indian Carnival today. There are a lot of West Indians from New York and South Florida moving there. And they're moving there partly because of the city's reputation as a black "mecca."
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by iAMtheVVALRUS
Boston has the 4th most immigration from Africa of any US city, behind only NYC, DC, and Atlanta, and ahead of San Francisco, Houston, Chicago, Minneapolis, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Miami.
And Boston had the 6th most immigration from South America, behind NYC, LA, Miami, DC, and Orlando, ahead of SF, Chicago, Houston, Atlanta, Dallas, Denver, Philadelphia, etc.
And of course, though it didn't surpass other metros in terms of recent immigration, as I pointed out earlier, Boston proper (you did say in response to Randolph and Quincy that we should keep the conversation to Boston proper) was more Asian than any non-West Coast US city other than NYC.
Now the point here is: why would all these minorities be moving to Boston in such large numbers if they felt that Boston was devoid of any cultural and economic opportunities for them?
DC has more minority immigration than Boston, but not by much. Atlanta slightly edges Boston out in terms of African immigration, but Boston has more South American (West Indian?) immigration. And Boston has ore monority immigration than the majority of the country.
Now, using your own argument, why would Boston be getting so much recent immigration if they could just choose to live in New York or DC? Even the Bay Area and Chicago and LA are supposedly less "white" than Boston, so why is it that immigrants are choosing Boston over all those other cities?
If there really is such "a HUGE gap between the enthusiasm displayed by West Indians towards Boston and Brooklyn" , then how does Boston have so many West Indians, and why is it getting so much immigration when Brooklyn is so close?
First off as a West Indian myself I can say that while Boston may not be the West Indian magnet places like South Florida and NYC are, it is still a very good city to live in if you are West Indian. We have 2 24 hour Caribbean radio stations, Social Clubs, Excellent restaurants, groceries and two annual Carnivals. I can also link up and play football and cricket any weekend of the year outside of winter. The community is very vibrant and present.
Also when it comes to the black professional class in Boston I believe we are quietly making some significant progress that many are ignoring. No we are not on the level of DC, NYC or ATL (probably will never be) But to say the Black professional class is non existent is blatantly false. We now have a black Governor, 25% of the city council is black, the Boston school superintendent is black, the secretary of public safety is black, the CEO of the MBTA is black, the senator replacing John Kerry in DC is black, the Suffolk county sheriff is black, the mayor of Newton is black, the ECE chief is black, the chief supreme court justice for MA is black, the judge presiding over the Whitey Bulger case is black, the managing director of the states largest law firm is black, the most powerful Doctor at the states second largest hospital is black. I could go on and on as well if we want to zero down into specific companies. I am not sure where people work, but in the Longwood Medical Area blacks are well represented in the Healthcare field, heck when you see the new residents walking around its tough to find a young white doctor at times because most are Asian and African.
Boston has a long way to go, but people need to start giving us blacks credit for what we have accomplished here.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
