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Old 01-06-2014, 05:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xS☺Be View Post
Shouldn't this thread be in politics and other controversies?
It Depends. Are the comments related to general politics or Massachusetts politics?
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Massachusetts
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MDovell and Atkinson, interesting "new" viewpoints and actually addresses the question around how progressive and what way Massachusetts is "progressive." Much better content than the name calling and bickering this thread was dissolving into.
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mdovell View Post
"There is a political philosophy put to use in Massachusetts that states: if people need government handouts to subsist then they will faithfully and unequivocally vote for the political party providing the handouts. "

Fine in theory but fatal in fact. Those with less income are generally much less apt to vote. Having said this general elections have a larger turnout then local. But the reality is the state isn't nearly as "left" as what some might suggest. Consider the following.

1) If this was such a peacenik place then why do many Ivy league schools develop weapons for the miitary? How many simply go up to Raytheon? It wasn't that long ago that the first President bush bragged about patriot missiles in Andover. Remember the movie Weird Science? That was kinda based on some real things. People even referred to MIT as the Pentagon on the Charles during Vietnam

2) If Mass has such high amounts of gun control why did so many weapons be made in Springfield for so long?

3) Why would sales taxes and fuel taxes go up fully knowing that these are regressive in nature?

4) Why would Mass push the state lottery so much (yes I know it it killed off numbers games by organized crime but still) fully knowing that addictive gamblers are more likely to be poorer people? What about the push for casinos?

5) If Mass was so much to the left why is much of the state gentrified? The former Combat Zone is now dorms for northeastern (not the same buildings obviously, they were ripped down).

6) Why are there such generous tax breaks given the sports teams in the state? How many world series, superbowls, nba playoffs and Stanley cups have to be won before they go up?

7) Would any liberal place create such a massive economic divide between eastern and western mass?

I agree with the novelty factor. Don't get me wrong if you are looking for specific medical care, going to higher education or a great bar/sport scene by all means Boston has it. But once you are done with school (at least formal schooling), discover local bars and that a hdtv can be a better experience then going to the game you grow out of it. A friend of mine had to almost beg me to go to a redsox game with him last year. It was raining and ok but kinda got old.

Also consider this
United States presidential election in Massachusetts, 2004 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
South east mass is turning more to the right and it is the fastest growing part of the state. In 2004 it was nearly tied in Plymouth and Bristol county.

United States presidential election in Massachusetts, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Again four years later the same thing.

United States presidential election in Massachusetts, 2012 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Massachusetts Population Growth Rate by County
So if central Ma and south east ma turn to the right it's only a matter of time before Berkshire county fades in terms of a voting block. The democrats cannot simply treat Mass as JUST Boston. As we can see those that are the most to the left are just not growing.

It is one thing for towns to go to the right but once a whole county goes and this looks possible at the way things are going we might see this turn more purple than blue.
That's a long time away, I mean even with that, the State Legislature is still 90% Democratic.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:15 PM
 
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True the legislature is democratic but at the same point the population usually isn't. Most people are independents. Now they'll probably vote democrat because that's what's on the ballot. But if you neglect or screw up then they will go republican. That's the one thing Coakley found out the hard way. Having said that I think she has a pretty good chances to become governor.

On a local level there is no real left or right. Issue based sure but not ideological. Everyone wants decent roads, schools, bridges, a tax base that works and so on.

I would argue that western Mass is more to the left then the rest of Massachusetts simply because of the amount of development. It borders more of vermont which tends to have higher taxes rather than NH which has them much lower (no income or state mostly property and dividend). Sometimes development is feared. There's some debated reforms in Mexico that might shake up the monopolies of energy and communications. There have been some arguments that the poverty levels have been around for so long that it means something different to have a bit more affluence. But that's a poor argument to have if you can have more.

A goldylox scenario often times is not possible. If housing goes up sometimes people can get priced out of neighborhoods (i.e. gentrification) while at the same time if they go down it can lead to an exodus like parts of Detroit and Cleveland.

Not everything we think of is exactly left and right. At no point would Howard Dean ever state that Vermont has hardly any gun laws. And at the same time Palin would never say that the state of Alaska gives government handouts to people simply breathing (oil dividend).

Here's another bit to consider. Supposedly the most stablest forms of currency was Boston and New York subway tokens. What you paid for the token went up. But what you received generally stayed the same. So that same token in 1910 received the same in 1930, 1950, 1980, 2000...all the way up until the Charlie Card was made. There were people that would actually hedge against inflation by buying tokens before they went up in price. Now that doesn't really matter. The highest you can hedge might be a monthly pass. I don't think it was that liberal to really create inflation out of thin air given the regressive nature of a subway fee.

How about this. The city of boston unlike most of the state does not allow for drug store clinics. If this was really as liberal as possible what is wrong with expanding health care?
‘Minute Clinics’ In Boston Mayor’s Race: Not An Issue, Should They Be? | CommonHealth

It's not like these are new. They've been around for five or so years in the state.
State's first in-store medical clinics to open - The Boston Globe

Lastly one could argue the residency requirement. If a private sector employer made the argument they can only hire people if they live in specific areas they would probably find themselves in court and yet this has been a city policy since the late 1970's. Certainly with police and fire you want those employees to get to locations fast and some might argue that they would be apt to spend more where they serve. However, this simply heightens the value of properties artificially and people end up voting for their own paycheck. It's a very controversial topic around the country within the public sector. Some cities have it, some do not and some have various exemptions and might not really enforce it.
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Old 01-07-2014, 09:37 AM
 
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I never thought of Boston as progressive, just fairly liberal. It's rather conservative in most ways.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
I never thought of Boston as progressive, just fairly liberal. It's rather conservative in most ways.
These terms are all meaningless.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:21 PM
 
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Maybe to you, but strangely enough, words have definitions and that is how we communicate through the use of them.
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
Maybe to you, but strangely enough, words have definitions and that is how we communicate through the use of them.
LOL so clever, but you totally missed my point. How meaningless is it to say a place isn't progressive, but still liberal, at the same time as being conservative.

I'm not blaming you, I'm just saying that these labels have lost all meaning.
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Old 01-07-2014, 05:36 PM
 
8,671 posts, read 8,824,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 495neighbor View Post
MDovell and Atkinson, interesting "new" viewpoints and actually addresses the question around how progressive and what way Massachusetts is "progressive." Much better content than the name calling and bickering this thread was dissolving into.
People think they are so smart when they come up with new viewpoints, but in reality the reason no one came up with it before is because its wrong.
I have a "new" perspective, 1+1+7, why hasn't anyone ever proposed that before? Because its wrong.

Boston is the Progressive city in the most progressive state in the nation, having Universal Healthcare, and Gay Marriage first, and Medical marijuana ahead of most of the nation. First in Public education, first state to allow Labor Unions, and due to Boston being so large in the state (even moreso in the Last 2) it had a large role in making these things happen.
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Old 01-07-2014, 07:40 PM
 
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eh...health care frankly is companies doing it not that much of a public option. Obamacare came from Romneycare which came from Hillarycare which came from a few guys at the Heritage foundation in the late 1980's which might have came from Nixon.
Nixon's Plan For Health Reform, In His Own Words - Kaiser Health News
Mandates to cover people...sounds familiar. It is a far cry from universal care as frankly if someone doesn't pay the penalty and doesn't work then they can get around not having care.


I wouldn't call same sex marriage a liberal thing because frankly a more conservative approach would be to pretty much get government out of the marriage business to begin with.

Eighteen states already legalized medical marijuana before Massachusetts.

Labor unions sure but that was a court decision not really by those holding an elected office.

I wouldn't call public education liberal because frankly there's no assurance that the private sector would teach something comprehensive. Moreover the religious influence of the colonial era assured that there would be some form of education. Currently there are fair amounts of magnet and charter schools. If the city was liberal they would not be allowed to exist.

It isn't wrong to point these out. I would suggest you read political philosophy (not fox news or msnbc etc). Heck I didn't even mention roads. Why put on tolls on the rest of the mass pike? Pretty regressive.

We might not like taxes but they give us a right to complain. Taxes and voting are how people influence government. The affluent obviously pay more in taxes so the only recourse for poorer people is to vote. It is political hypocrisy for some to advocate for lower taxes because it means they have less influence.
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