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Note the spelling of "Worcester". A lot of people want to get the H out of that place.
The sentence "The portal is because both the Lowell and the Newburyport/Rockport lines would fork out of the same portal" is unfortunately not a sentence, and it's hard to be sure what it should mean. Because of North Station's origin as a joint terminal for several different routes which originally each had a separate terminus, the lines diverge immediately after leaving the station, so for most of them there wouldn't be any possibility of a shared tunnel portal; there would have to be a long ramp down from each route that connected to the proposed tunnel, all in an urban area where the land would be hard to obtain. Looking at the map, the best bet for sharing would be the Newburyport and Haverhill lines, which stay together until Sullivan Square. Whether that's enough distance to get from a deep tunnel to ground level, I wouldn't know. But note that it's not just ground level the tracks have to reach, but each of those routes has to get up and over the Mystic River on separate bridges. Or should the new track stay low and go under the Mystic, then climb later?
On the Green Line, or any transport system, the stations aren't close together so that people can get a ride from one to the next. They're spaced so you don't have to walk too far to get to one. Eliminate half the stops, and some people have to walk twice as far. It has to be a compromise.
My mistake. Also, I usually type on my phone and go back and forth on editing so there's definitely some word salad getting tossed about. Apologies!
I think I did intend for the sentence to read as "both the Lowell and the Newburyport/Rockport lines would fork out of the same portal."
Here's an image:
There are two portals coming out from North Station. The portal forking out on the right is to be used by the Lowell, Haverhill, and Newburyport/Rockport lines. Is that inaccurate?
Anyhow, what's your general feeling on this whole thing? Do you think a phased build out might be more sensible?
My general sense is that with limited transit dollars, going straight for the full build-out is an arduous process. There are other worthwhile projects, like the Blue/Red Line connection that was previously mentioned, and proposing to tie up so much transit funding to a singular large project of the full North-South link plan with all portals and electrification of all lines means there's little left for the other good proposals. With a phased build out where the initial build out is already useful, then the money that would have gone to a South Station expansion can be avoided while getting similar results and more while also building out part of the framework for a much larger overall improvement. This also might be a good stopgap measure to assuage some of those who want a Blue Line extension as either an electrified Newburyport/Rockport Line that goes to Aquarium Station, South Station, Back Bay, and points beyond with higher frequency or just a higher frequency Newbury/Rockport Line to North Station if another North Station-bound line is electrified (through more open terminal berths and diesel traincars being made available) both result in better service. Is there merit in this?
There might be some kind of reasonable compromise to remove some Green Line stops to speed things up, but probably not half.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-05-2017 at 07:03 PM..
It seems to me that this question "If the North-South Station Link were to be done in a phased build out, what lines should be done first?"is somewhat sneaky. First we need to ask "Is the North-South Station Link a poor way to spend money?"
I think that this north-south link is a very marginal item which I'd push way down the priority list. If I wanted to pour a lot of money into a construction project, I'd extend the Blue Line to Charles Street. Or go for a Green Line extension across Cambridge, from Lechmere through Union Square and Central Square to Kenmore. Or maybe accept that light rail doesn't have the capacity for an inner-city route, and make the cross-Cambridge route be a branch off the Orange Line. In fact, think big and extend the branch all the way down to Roxbury so there could be an Orange Line loop! That would give some mobility to neighborhoods that don't have much. If we're going to spend heaps of money (as if the incoming government in Washington will give us a dime to do that!) then let's have a project that could move a lot of people.
It seems to me that this question "If the North-South Station Link were to be done in a phased build out, what lines should be done first?"is somewhat sneaky. First we need to ask "Is the North-South Station Link a poor way to spend money?"
I think that this north-south link is a very marginal item which I'd push way down the priority list. If I wanted to pour a lot of money into a construction project, I'd extend the Blue Line to Charles Street. Or go for a Green Line extension across Cambridge, from Lechmere through Union Square and Central Square to Kenmore. Or maybe accept that light rail doesn't have the capacity for an inner-city route, and make the cross-Cambridge route be a branch off the Orange Line. In fact, think big and extend the branch all the way down to Roxbury so there could be an Orange Line loop! That would give some mobility to neighborhoods that don't have much. If we're going to spend heaps of money (as if the incoming government in Washington will give us a dime to do that!) then let's have a project that could move a lot of people.
I agree the Blue Line extension and the ongoing Green Line extension are really important, sure. Transit dollars are limited and it's premature to go full bore into creating the entirety of the North-South Rail Link plans which is why I'm curious as to what a useful initial build out should look like.
What are your feelings on the South Station expansion for MBTA Commuter Rail? If you think allowing for greater frequencies on MBTA Commuter Rail is important, then does it become a better idea if an initial phased build out of North-South Rail Link is roughly on the same order of magnitude in cost as that but achieves more?
- the majority of the route outside of the portals had already been cleared out as clean dirt with utilities already relocated as part of the Big Dig
- massively expanding South Station as is especially at its highly entangled interlocking is already expensive and would become unnecessary with this tunnel (and adds a lot more capacity)
- running greater peak frequencies necessarily means purchasing new traincars anyhow (diesel if as is with a South Station expansion, electric if with the link)
- electrification is a long range goal as it's generally less expensive to operate and less polluting
- the area around Aquarium Station is seeing substantial development and this aids that development
- there is currently no commuter rail connection to the Blue Line and this would add one
- peak hour crowding on the subway and light rail is relieved of some commuter rail people pouring into it for the last leg of their trip both directly by lines served and indirectly as other commuter rail riders can transfer to trains going into North Station through Aquarium St now instead of the subway system
- greater federal and regional funding sources are more likely because electrification of the line heading north means the five Downeaster trains can instead be through-run Northeast Corridor trains, and if that line isn't electrified in its entirety, then at least opens up the potential for through-run trains and provides a direct transfer to South Station
- part of the cost is already sunk in as some of the electrical infrastructure is already there on the Providence/Stoughton line.
However, if you think higher MBTA Commuter Rail peak frequencies is a poor idea and the crowding on the subway during peak hours aren't going to be that bad in the future, then I can see how hard of a sell this is to you even if there are factors in place that make it more cost-effective than cutting it out of whole cloth.
Also, are you aware of S-Bahn and RER type services where former commuter rail lines are run as rapid transit lines in parts where different lines come together as shared lines? If a portion of the commuter rail lines ultimately run as rapid transit, then does that qualify as thinking big?
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-06-2017 at 10:00 AM..
A north south rail link makes perfect sense. But IMHO, it shouldn't be for commuter rail or Amtrak. It should be something like the silver line - a electric bus that runs on a high frequency between North and South Stations without any other stops that would cost the same as other T lines. Is there really enough cross traffic to justify running commuter rail through the city?
The benefits are that it eliminates the need for rail installation and electrification of commuter trains and reduces the cost of constructing and maintaining the system.
A north south rail link makes perfect sense. But IMHO, it shouldn't be for commuter rail or Amtrak. It should be something like the silver line - a electric bus that runs on a high frequency between North and South Stations without any other stops that would cost the same as other T lines. Is there really enough cross traffic to justify running commuter rail through the city?
The benefits are that it eliminates the need for rail installation and electrification of commuter trains and reduces the cost of constructing and maintaining the system.
That's interesting. It'd be a lot cheaper, but it'd have a lot less utility as well. Would this Silver Line run to other parts or is this just a shuttle between the stations you're thinking?
As for there being enough cross traffic--well, that's hard to determine because allowing for cross traffic generally induces businesses and residents to be further out as the commute time lessens and the commuter pool expands. It's something that drives development. If allowing cross-traffic changed nothing about where people lived and worked and spurred no development and the city and region didn't grow much larger, then an initial link build out does two things:
1) link North and South station with a stop in between which running this bus shuttle would do as well, but that's one more transfer to another mode which isn't terrible; the other notable station that has some notable jobs and institutions that a through-route from North Station gets is Back Bay and Ruggles--not sure what major employment / institutional nodes South Station-bound lines through-running north get aside from Aquarium Station and North Station though that should play a part in what North Station-bound line should be electrified first
2) greatly expands the capacity of both South Station and North Station so there can be much greater peak frequencies and fewer delays for MBTA Commuter Rail (and Amtrak)
The cross-traffic part where someone commutes from out in the north suburbs to the south or west suburbs and vice versa aren't going to play a particularly large part in an initial build out and it's speculative how important it'd be even in a full build out (data taken from an initial build out to see how many people make that trip and what the induced demand is over the course of several years would probably give a better idea).
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-06-2017 at 11:36 AM..
That's interesting. It'd be a lot cheaper, but it'd have a lot less utility as well. Would this Silver Line run to other parts or is this just a shuttle between the stations you're thinking?
My thought would be for it to be a dedicated shuttle between the stations with no other stops in a dedicated underground tunnel like the Silver Line downs in South Boston. It's less than a mile as the crow flies between the stations and a dedicated shuttle could do it in less than 7-10 minutes. The other lines are there to get people to other stops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
The cross-traffic part where someone commutes from out in the north suburbs to the south or west suburbs and vice versa aren't going to play a particularly large part in an initial build out and it's speculative how important it'd be even in a full build out (data taken from an initial build out to see how many people make that trip and what the induced demand is over the course of several years would probably give a better idea).
I think hitting oneself over the head with a 2x4 a few times a day would hurt less than taking the commuter rail between north, south, and west. Imagine a Beverly to Braintree commute on the commuter rail??
I disagree with using a BRT line. One of the big advantages with the NSRL is that it will free up capacity at both North and South station allowing for an increase in frequencies. I would like the city to implement smaller trains while also increasing frequency on commuter rail routes inside of 128. It could help create a rapid transit like lines along the North Shore or on the Worcester line out to Newton. The possibilities for this are endless. It will also prevent North Station arrivals from having to transfer to the Orange Line to get to the Back Bay which would decrease the overcrowding that exists on the Orange and Green lines.
If they're going to build tunnels they might as well build rail tunnels. Bus tunnels would be pointless.
My thought would be for it to be a dedicated shuttle between the stations with no other stops in a dedicated underground tunnel like the Silver Line downs in South Boston. It's less than a mile as the crow flies between the stations and a dedicated shuttle could do it in less than 7-10 minutes. The other lines are there to get people to other stops.
I think hitting oneself over the head with a 2x4 a few times a day would hurt less than taking the commuter rail between north, south, and west. Imagine a Beverly to Braintree commute on the commuter rail??
Right, which is why I think going out from one suburb to another is going to be a pretty limited part of the picture and not the main point. Beverly to Braintree is going to be awful without the portal going down there, but it's not a particularly cost-efficient reason for the building of a portal. However, there are people already going from the North Station-bound lines who are then transferring to get to work around South Station, Back Bay or the Ruggles stop or people transferring to work near Aquarium Station or North Station from the South Shore-bound lines.
The minor benefits of an initial build are these suburb to suburb commutes and the possibility of better regional Amtrak rides*. The benefits exist, but the number of people who can currently use them are small, but may grow once completed.
The major benefits are still for:
- North Station-bound commuters to get to jobs and events in Aquarium Station, South Station, Back Bay, and Ruggles, South Station-bound commuters to get to jobs and events in Aquarium Station and North Station, and alleviating crowding for everyone else riding the subway lines these people would have poured into
- More frequent service for all other MBTA Commuter Rail lines to South Station and North Station for the other lines that don't go through the link
If the projection is that more frequent service for all MBTA Commuter Rail lines and peak crowding and delays on subway and light rail lines now and in the future don't matter though, then this project should be dead in the water.
Circling back to the topic though--if there was a limited first phase build, are there any stations along North Station-bound lines that are near major employment centers aside from North Station? Does that even currently exist?
I'm curious to know if I've been able to convince anyone who was on the fence or against the link to be for at least the partial build out. If so, what parts were the most convincing? If not, what parts seem weak?
*the latter is only beneficial to Boston and its immediate area because the link then has a higher chance of getting federal and regional funding--this is especially true for federal funding on the Downeaster and Northeast Regional Amtrak routes because by law lines less than 750 miles long are not eligible for certain federal operational funding procurements and an eventual extension of Northeast Regional at 664 miles currently to continue through as the Downeaster for that additional 145 miles puts that service comfortably into that 750 mile limit and generally what's worked out on a local level is a fare-sharing agreement between national rail and regional rail which would result in MBTA Commuters able to ride the Amtrak trains within the commuter shed for the same fare structure as the usual commuter rail
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-06-2017 at 03:14 PM..
Circling back to the topic though--if there was a limited first phase build, are there any stations along North Station-bound lines that are near major employment centers aside from North Station? Does that even currently exist?
Assembly may become an employment center in the future. The Partners building is complete and there are a bunch of other office/lab buildings planned for the area. I could see the MBTA moving their Haverhill line stop from Malden to Assembly sometime in the future if the area continues to develop.
But yes you bring up a good point. The Northern commuter rail lines don't really connect with many job centers. There aren't any large office towers near North Station and the financial district is a fairly long walk from North Station. South side commuters on the other hand have easy access to the Back Bay, Financial District, and the Seaport.
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