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Assembly may become an employment center in the future. The Partners building is complete and there are a bunch of other office/lab buildings planned for the area. I could see the MBTA moving their Haverhill line stop from Malden to Assembly sometime in the future if the area continues to develop.
But yes you bring up a good point. The Northern commuter rail lines don't really connect with many job centers. There aren't any large office towers near North Station and the financial district is a fairly long walk from North Station. South side commuters on the other hand have easy access to the Back Bay, Financial District, and the Seaport.
There is a pretty big job/visitor center at MGH/Mass E&E which is a 5-7 minute walk from North Station. As far as the walk to the financial district, it's only 20-25 minutes to the furthest points. My wife walks to Downtown Crossing from North Station every day along with hundreds or thousands of other folks.
There is a pretty big job/visitor center at MGH/Mass E&E which is a 5-7 minute walk from North Station. As far as the walk to the financial district, it's only 20-25 minutes to the furthest points. My wife walks to Downtown Crossing from North Station every day along with hundreds or thousands of other folks.
Oh I know lots of people do walk from the financial district to North Station. However it's not ideal, a 20-25 min walk adds a bit to the commute time and can become unbearable on cold winter mornings.
After discussing this here and on other forums for some time now, I don't really think there is any real reason to have a north-south rail link that just connects north and south station directly.
There is not really any strong argument I have seen as for why someone from the north side commuter rail would need to get to South Station itself. If you come in on commuter rail, you are looking to get into the city. North Station is served by the orange Line which gets you to the financial district via State, Downtown Crossing, and Chinatown, and the Medical Center via Tufts. The Green Line gets you to downtown at State, and to the Back Bay. The only two major issues with North station trains is there is no connection to the Red Line except for the Fitchburg line for access to Harvard Square and UMASS Boston. Perhaps there could be a Harvard Shuttle between North Station and Porter.
Now I can see an argument for needing to be able to shift equipment form the south to the north side outside of the Grand Junction or running all the way out to Worcester, but that is not really important for passengers. If there is really a need for people from the north side to have rail service to suburbs on the south side, it would be better to bypass the city altogether.
For Amtrak, they don't really need to service North Station, it is only used for the Downeaster as they cant get to south Station. And for that I think there is a better solution. Believe it or not, the Ted Williams tunnel portion of the Big Dig was the only part that came in under budget, and was probably the best use of budget money for what they got. They still need to figure a way to bridge South Station to the Seaport District, but from there I think they should build another double tube harbor tunnel, this time for two main line rail tracks and two transit line tracks. Instead of pooping up above ground on the other side, build an underground station. Then continue the bore under the harbor under where the Tobin bridge is and come up where the old rail yard was on terminal st. From there there are already lines that connect to North Station and the north side. If you needed a North/south link in the future, you can run a shuttle train between North and south stations, stopping at the airport.
This would then mean Amtrak trains could stop at South Station and then continue on to points north. Even better, you could have Acela stop right at the airport. Plus, you could expand the track 61 project to now connect the airport directly with the Seaport/Convention Center and Back Bay with just one ride. For that matter, solve the parking issue at Loan by building a huge garage on the land where the old CSX yard was. The Worcester line runs right there. Run a DMU or EMU from Riverside, stop at the CSX yard, Back Bay, South Station, the Airport, and finally North Station. Now Logan has transit access!
After discussing this here and on other forums for some time now, I don't really think there is any real reason to have a north-south rail link that just connects north and south station directly.
There is not really any strong argument I have seen as for why someone from the north side commuter rail would need to get to South Station itself. If you come in on commuter rail, you are looking to get into the city. North Station is served by the orange Line which gets you to the financial district via State, Downtown Crossing, and Chinatown, and the Medical Center via Tufts. The Green Line gets you to downtown at State, and to the Back Bay. The only two major issues with North station trains is there is no connection to the Red Line except for the Fitchburg line for access to Harvard Square and UMASS Boston. Perhaps there could be a Harvard Shuttle between North Station and Porter.
Now I can see an argument for needing to be able to shift equipment form the south to the north side outside of the Grand Junction or running all the way out to Worcester, but that is not really important for passengers. If there is really a need for people from the north side to have rail service to suburbs on the south side, it would be better to bypass the city altogether.
For Amtrak, they don't really need to service North Station, it is only used for the Downeaster as they cant get to south Station. And for that I think there is a better solution. Believe it or not, the Ted Williams tunnel portion of the Big Dig was the only part that came in under budget, and was probably the best use of budget money for what they got. They still need to figure a way to bridge South Station to the Seaport District, but from there I think they should build another double tube harbor tunnel, this time for two main line rail tracks and two transit line tracks. Instead of pooping up above ground on the other side, build an underground station. Then continue the bore under the harbor under where the Tobin bridge is and come up where the old rail yard was on terminal st. From there there are already lines that connect to North Station and the north side. If you needed a North/south link in the future, you can run a shuttle train between North and south stations, stopping at the airport.
This would then mean Amtrak trains could stop at South Station and then continue on to points north. Even better, you could have Acela stop right at the airport. Plus, you could expand the track 61 project to now connect the airport directly with the Seaport/Convention Center and Back Bay with just one ride. For that matter, solve the parking issue at Loan by building a huge garage on the land where the old CSX yard was. The Worcester line runs right there. Run a DMU or EMU from Riverside, stop at the CSX yard, Back Bay, South Station, the Airport, and finally North Station. Now Logan has transit access!
I see what you're getting at, and I like the idea of these new tunnels, but I'm not sure they should be prioritized for transit dollars over the link.
The link, especially with just the initial smaller build out I'm mentioning, serves two primary purposes.
You disagree with the first one which was to give North Station-bound lines one seat rides to jobs and institutions at Aquarium Station, South Station, and Back Bay (vice versa would be South Station-bound riders that had jobs closer to Aquarium Station or North Station, but those are probably going to be smaller in number). That by itself does two different things. One is that it saves time for those commuters who formerly had to switch trains or walk further. Secondly, it relieves pressure for everyone else on the rapid transit systems since some people who formerly had to transfer at North Station to the T now no longer have to so crowding is reduced. It makes sense to actually make a detailed study on this though, especially if it's done in phases and there needs to be commuter lines / portals chosen to be the first electrified / built.
The second is a capacity issue. South Station Expansion is something currently on the docket, but it's incredibly pricey for something that will hit its limits pretty quickly. With all the berths that South Station has, and the many more it will have, it still won't be able to handle the kind of capacity that a four track through-running link will be able to. This has panned out over and over in many cities around the world--increasing terminal berths is operationally inefficient and a pretty limited solution.
The reason why this seems like a credible and worthwhile project is because the immediate benefits and immediate needs are already there, several of the costs are already sunk in such as the utility relocations for most of the link's span already which was done during the Big Dig, and because this limited phase accomplishes some of the long range plans that money would have been spent on anyways (more capacity for commuter rail at south station, and far more capacity at that, and eventual electrification).
The Amtrak part is fairly unimportant, I agree. Its importance for the Boston area isn't for how much more usage people in the area can get out of it--it's that it would increase the chance of getting better regional and national funding. If electrification proceeds up to New Hampshire and Maine in the future, then some Northeast Corridor trains can stop at South Station and turn back while some can take the link up and through, thereby replacing the Downeaster. Being able to have that direct link to the corridor, even if not at first, means a greater likelihood that New Hampshire and Maine will help throw in on this. On an operational side, an extended Northeastern Corridor that does take over part of the Downeaster service passes the 750 mile limit--a limit that opens up the line for additional federal funding operationally. So you're basically getting a better case for more funding from outside Massachusetts for a link where Massachusetts / Boston is the primary beneficiary.
Well, I think most people think that there is a built tunnel just waiting to be opened under the expressway. In fact all that was really provisioned were some slurry walls. That is a terrible area to try and find room - really the answer to such a tunnel would be a deep bore anyways, which has little to do with provisions from the big dig.
Beyond whether a one ride is important enough anyways, you still wont gain that from going to South Station. Except for some parts of the Financial District, you still miss Back Bay, you still miss Seaport. Maybe you gain Harvard Square. I am not sure much exists around Aquarium anyways, though I do think a west financial district station is amiss on the regular T network. Back Bay is actually easier from the North Side unless you were on the Needham or Worcester lines. North Station connects with the Orange and Green lines which cover a lot of business areas. From South you have to figure a way over to Back Bay or Government Center.
There are a ton of discussions on this. Try the railroad.net website, they have an extensive discussion about all the benefits and drawbacks.
Well, I think most people think that there is a built tunnel just waiting to be opened under the expressway. In fact all that was really provisioned were some slurry walls. That is a terrible area to try and find room - really the answer to such a tunnel would be a deep bore anyways, which has little to do with provisions from the big dig.
Beyond whether a one ride is important enough anyways, you still wont gain that from going to South Station. Except for some parts of the Financial District, you still miss Back Bay, you still miss Seaport. Maybe you gain Harvard Square. I am not sure much exists around Aquarium anyways, though I do think a west financial district station is amiss on the regular T network. Back Bay is actually easier from the North Side unless you were on the Needham or Worcester lines. North Station connects with the Orange and Green lines which cover a lot of business areas. From South you have to figure a way over to Back Bay or Government Center.
There are a ton of discussions on this. Try the railroad.net website, they have an extensive discussion about all the benefits and drawbacks.
Hey there!
Yes, it's definitely not a built tunnel. What it is is utilities cleared out inside a rudimentary box with clean dirt filled in--and that by itself is valuable because utilities relocation takes a lot of engineering skill and time. It will be a deep bore.
For the one seat ride, it's true it'll get some parts of the financial district and the financial district is a lot of jobs. What's not true is Back Bay necessarily--the Back Bay portal is the most reasonable one to build of the South Station portals so Back Bay access is higher on the list for why this makes sense since it's a one-seat ride for North Station-bound lines that go through the portal benefitting those riders while also benefitting those headed to Back Bay on the T since you're taking those commuters off the Orange and Green Lines headed to Back Bay and reducing crowding (and crowding causes delays). Aquarium does partially serve the financial district and other jobs though is definitely not as important as South Station, but it does allow the distribution of commuter train riders to the less used Blue Line. Of course, that would be far more helpful if the Blue Line were extended to MGH.
So yes, you agree South Station is near a major employment center and you think a Back Bay connection would make sense--which a Back Bay portal will net. Seaport, unfortunately, does not really factor into this, but it's pretty hard to have a reasonable project to serve absolutely every need. However, along with the benefits of a one-seat ride and reduced crowding on the T downtown, there's also the massive capacity increase for commuter trains that through-running would allow which is the other major benefit from doing this. There's already a move to try to get an increase in South Station by expanding South Station in a traditional manner, but that's an incredibly inefficient way to do so that's more of an expensive stopgap than anything. It's understandable the full North-South Rail Link with all lines going through and electrified, but this smaller initial phase nets at least these benefits and can potentially be priced similar to this expansion.
There are a ton of discussions on this--railroad.net does have a thread on it (so does archboston which is less for it overall) and it's generally in favor. I think people are waylaid a bit in their discussions on this when they're against the plan because the focus is often put on the more minor or harder to project benefits such as the potential for Amtrak through-routing or suburb to suburb one-seat rides. Those exist and at the same time it makes sense to find those benefits to be questionable because there's little indication that the ridership numbers for that aren't there.
The benifit to the North-South station link is that it will increase capacity at both North and South Stations. Trains going through the stations will be quicker than the trains having to turn around. Also people coming from the north and working somewhere near south station would have to make 3 transfers, that takes lots of time. Having a one seat ride would make places like Salem or Lynn much more accessible to the financial district and the back bay. Frequency's could be increased on the commuter rail lines which could provide much more reliable service. People in a place like Lynn would have an easier job relying on the commuter rail than they did before.
But hwy do they need to go to South Station in the first place, unless thy need to connect to someplace beyond?
For previously north station-bound services, jobs near there, aquarium station, or back bay station that can be within walking distance. If it means fewer or no transfers to the T, some people are willing to walk further to keep it a one-seat ride. For South Station-bound services, it'd be one-seat rides to jobs near Aquarium Station and North Station. For every commuter on commuter rail that can now either walk directly from the commuter rail station or get onboard the somewhat less crowded Blue Line, you're relieving the crowded (and often thus delayed) other T lines.
That alone might not be enough justification which is an arguable point, but it's also combined with the ability to massively increase peak frequencies for all commuter rail lines.
There are a lot of other much less important side benefits, but those two alone make sense especially in light of the massive cost of a South Station expansion which nets a far lesser capacity increase (and no capacity increase at all for North Station services) with none of the other benefits.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 02-01-2017 at 09:39 AM..
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