Holiday Tree lightings in November now? (house, buying, college)

[siameseifyoupls]

Originally Posted by jayrandom

Everyone grows up with a culture (excepting perhaps actual feral children, if they exist). The modern American culture permeates the US (and the world) to such an extent that maybe you don't notice it. Or perhaps you just feel better than everyone else so basically dismiss it as "not really a culture".

Either way, the US definitely has a culture. Just visit anywhere else in the world to see that it's different and it's being spread across the world.

The month long festive period between Thanksgiving and Christmas is an integral part of that culture. And it has been for as long as I can remember.

I must be older than you are. The excess that I see today is not something that I remember from my childhood. It has crept in over the years. A process of desensitization.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by timberline742

That's true for almost all religions. Certainly true for Catholicism, which I was raised in.


I don't like the majority of mainstream culture either, so I ignore it. Including, most of the commercialism / materialism that drives our culture. Or, I try to do so. But the Black Friday being the beginning of the Xmas season has definitely been a thing since I was a kid in the 1970s.

One difference I'd suggest between Catholicism and modern paganism is that Catholicism has been a constant for the last couple millennia, whereas paganism has not (and besides, paganism has always been a rather hard to nail down concept). Cultures and traditions can develop authentically (I'm making a distinction between culture/tradition and antiquarianism, the former is natural, the latter not), nothing is static, but what we see with a lot of modern stuff is merely picking and choosing aesthetic preferences with no other particular rhyme or reason other than it fits your tastes (which will vary person to person to a high degree).

Consumerism/materialism is baked pretty thoroughly into our culture, that's true. I do ignore it as well, but it's sad that so many people look at Black Friday and apparently think, "ahh, don't you love our culture?"

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

The difference I'd suggest between Catholicism and modern paganism is that Catholicism has been a constant for the last couple millennia, whereas paganism has not (and besides, paganism has always been a rather hard to nail down concept). Cultures and traditions can develop authentically (I'm making a distinction between culture/tradition and antiquarianism, the former is natural, the latter not), nothing is static, but what we see with a lot of modern stuff is merely picking and choosing aesthetic preferences with no other particular rhyme or reason other than it fits your tastes.
"

Sounds like free will and free choice to pursue one's happiness. Doing something because of tradition, just for the sake of tradition, never held much interest to me.


I understand some people in certain groups/faiths do so to re-affirm their bonds and shared history, and that's fine for them if they do so out of personal desire, but expecting people do so when they personally have no interest in it for the sake of some else's desire to maintain "tradition" or what other's perceive as "culture" is not desirable in any way. People mixing and matching bits and pieces of different "traditions" as they please, or creating their own, or just ignoring at all, isn't something worthy of lament, IMO.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Sounds like free will and free choice to pursue one's happiness. Doing something because of tradition, just for the sake of tradition, never held much interest to me.


I understand some people in certain groups/faiths do so to re-affirm their bonds and shared history, and that's fine for them if they do so out of personal desire, but expecting people do so when they personally have no interest in it for the sake of some else's desire to maintain "tradition" or what other's perceive as "culture" is not desirable in any way. People mixing and matching bits and pieces of different "traditions" as they please, or creating their own, or just ignoring at all, isn't something worthy of lament, IMO.

Likewise, those who reject their certain groups/faiths also do so to affirm their own selves. Individualism run amok, in my opinion (though I understand the impulse). The world will not go anywhere as long as the ego is valued so highly.

Certainly all are free to associate or disassociate with whomever they like. This doesn't necessarily mean that all things are ipso facto equal in all ways.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Likewise, those who reject their certain groups/faiths also do so to affirm their own selves. Individualism run amok, in my opinion (though I understand the impulse). The world will not go anywhere as long as the ego is valued so highly.

Certainly all are free to associate or disassociate with whomever they like. This doesn't necessarily mean that all things are ipso facto equal in all ways.

Not participating in groups/faiths one has no interest in participating in for another's reasons isn't rejecting them. There is no benefit in people participating in a tradition they don't believe in, even at a societal level, IMO.


Should I go to Catholic mass when I'm not superstitious at all and do not support organized religion? I think that would be insulting or making a mockery to those (like my mother) to whom it is an integral part of their lives.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Not participating in groups/faiths one has no interest in participating in for another's reasons isn't rejecting them. There is no benefit in people participating in a tradition they don't believe in, even at a societal level, IMO.


Should I go to Catholic mass when I'm not superstitious at all and do not support organized religion? I think that would be insulting or making a mockery to those (like my mother) to whom it is an integral part of their lives.

I agree with this. I don't advocate for people to be inauthentic, rather to question their reasons and motivations for their actions. Uncritical acceptance of anything, be it traditional Catholicism or secular hedonism, is never going to lead to a good place.

[jayrandom]

Originally Posted by siameseifyoupls

I must be older than you are. The excess that I see today is not something that I remember from my childhood. It has crept in over the years. A process of desensitization.

You must be really old, then.

From the wikipedia entry on Black Friday

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, many Santa or Thanksgiving Day parades were sponsored by department stores. These included the Toronto Santa Claus Parade, in Canada, sponsored by Eaton's, and the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade sponsored by Macy's. Department stores would use the parades to launch a big advertising push. Eventually, it just became an unwritten rule that no store would try doing Christmas advertising before the parade was over. Therefore, the day after Thanksgiving became the day when the shopping season officially started.

It certainly has gotten worse. It's pushed into Thanksgiving day itself (at least in states other than Massachusetts).

[jayrandom]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

One difference I'd suggest between Catholicism and modern paganism is that Catholicism has been a constant for the last couple millennia, whereas paganism has not (and besides, paganism has always been a rather hard to nail down concept). Cultures and traditions can develop authentically (I'm making a distinction between culture/tradition and antiquarianism, the former is natural, the latter not), nothing is static, but what we see with a lot of modern stuff is merely picking and choosing aesthetic preferences with no other particular rhyme or reason other than it fits your tastes (which will vary person to person to a high degree).

Consumerism/materialism is baked pretty thoroughly into our culture, that's true. I do ignore it as well, but it's sad that so many people look at Black Friday and apparently think, "ahh, don't you love our culture?"

Cultures have almost always been blends of other, earlier cultures, along with local innovations. The Romans borrowed liberally from those before them and those they conquered. The biggest difference is the pace has been sped up because of near instant global travel and communication. I'm not sure how you can distinguish American culture as unnatural or inauthentic.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by jayrandom

I'm not sure how you can distinguish American culture as unnatural or inauthentic.

I'm defining commercial bs as "inauthentic". You can disagree with that for sure. But I am far from the only person to parse what "culture" means. Do you also not believe in high vs low culture? Perhaps that would be an approximation of what I'm taking about. I think it's pretty uncontroversial.

There are some really great subcultures in the USA, there are some cool regional cultures as well, it's just that these groups are much smaller than what "American culture" denotes.

[Brave Stranger]

Bring on the lights....earlier the better. Getting dark at 4:30 in the afternoon is dreadful. Call the season what you want, but it breaks up the dreariness of late autumn early winter.