Just sold my house in Boulder... can't wait to leave (Fort Collins: new house, property taxes)
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Bird In Hand and Intercourse are in the Amish country of PA. You know, simple living and all that. Although by the size of their families. . .
I know. My family is from Lancaster PA, so those town names were a running joke when I was growing up.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
Anyway, back to Boulder. Boulder seems to be a combination of both "urban light" and "suburban light", ie, neither one nor the other. It's dense, but not so dense. Most people live in SF homes or in small apt. complexes, even the students. It's suburban with strip malls and chain stores, but OTOH, there are a lot of independents as well.
Not a bad description. Perhaps that's why people from large urban areas don't appreciate the "urban" amenities of Boulder, while people from more sprawled out places feel hemmed in in Boulder. To me though, its a good mix.
... I could pull a bunch of idiotic quotes that I've heard in Fort Collins over the years that would sound equally ridiculous as yours but I don't consider them representative of the many good people who live here so I won't bother. ....
Agree, there's no shortage of wacky quotes emanating from any city. I've heard that one about dishwashers all over the place.
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Funny, I don't recall any of my comments denigrating an entire city and the people who live in it. Your examples of supposedly more down to earth places are also a bit odd since they are all places (with the possible exception of Fort Collins) that have a certain "snob" appeal. Your list should probably have read something like Bakersfield, Butte, Tulsa, and North Dakota if you are at really looking for non-pretentious places.
Will this never end? Nor have I directed any of my comments at "an entire city" if you read what I wrote. Twist, red herring, ad hominen, straw man ...
It isn't about down to earth places or movin' to Butte so I can live with the salt of the earth as you keep framing the issue - it's about places that have diversity and have a more urban outlook. Obviously this is not Boulder. And no, none of these places I mention are over-the-rainbow, just palces I have lived and/or visited, have friends, and enjoy the outdoor amenities, urban amenities, proximity to the ocean, greenery, and progressive outlook, obviously with myself considering our family's financial situation and where we can afford to live the life we want. Based on my personal background, diversity has also been a factor that is important to me personally.
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I could pull a bunch of idiotic quotes that I've heard in Fort Collins over the years that would sound equally ridiculous as yours but I don't consider them representative of the many good people who live here so I won't bother.
Yes, I hear idiotic things in Fort Collins. The difference is: 1) most people with these views know enough to keep quiet (at least in my experience) for fear of offending, and 2) the people who express these things don't turn right around and talk about how wonderfully "liberal" they are while making snide remarks about other places which "must be so redneck."
Add to that in my profession, we tend to do things the "Boulder way," rather than pull in ideas and best practices from bigger cities - but that's specific to my situation.
The point is: Boulder is a wealthy, predominantly white small city in Colorado. It's a nice place to live, with nice mountains nearby and open space preserved, but the typical middle class family can't afford to live there unless they have $350,000 to shell out for a 3BR-1BA 1,000 sq ft fixer-upper in Martian Acres or a bit more for a nicer home. Many of the people who live here consider themselves to be extremely liberal, but the reality doesn't necessarily live up to this. None of this is to denigrate Boulder or the people who live there - today I met a very nice person who just moved there to start a software company and be closer to the outdoors - rahter, I explain why I, as a free individual, do not consider Boulder my over-the-rainbow community and why others may not as well. : )
Fort Collins is far from ideal, but I can say that in my neighborhood I knew a social worker, a carpenter, an artist, working-class Hispanic homeowners (not renters) as well as professers and engineers and managers; I also knew many mid-30s couples with young kids, which will hopefully be us soon! ...
... the main reason I recommend Fort Collins to couples and families looking to come to Colorado and live in a progressive college town environment is because:
a) the cost of housing is about half Boulder's;
b) if you live in Boulder county, you often end up being a commuter (from surrounding communities the buses are OK and bicycling is invigorating, but most people drive), whereas most of Fort Collins is bikable; and
c) if you live in or near old town in Fort Collins you'll have access a great downtown, meet lots of like-minded people into bicycling, local food, etc., besides which it's lots of fun and some great musicians are moving there (see New West Fest lineup). The restaurants and bike trails are better every year, and the new neighborhoods are now decently planned with new urbanist principles.
Many people seem to post on this forum asking if Boulder is a great place for them and their signifcant other and maybe young kids to come and live an idealistic college-town life, start a small business, etc. If you're set on Colorado, it seems to me Fort Collins fits that bill, so why not check it out.
None of this "denigrates" Boulder except to the over-sensitive who believe Boulder has to be viewed as the best place, hands-down, to live, and that anyone who questions this belongs in Butte or Tulsa (whatever that is meant to imply) or has an axe to grind. The sense of living in a "bubble" is clearly present and has been commented on to me by, for example, a retiree from San Franciso, a young entreprenuer, and several others - even by people who love Boulder.
This will be my last post as I find this thread going downhill and I choose not to engage this person anymore.
So please stop your comments about Butte, Tulsa, French Lick ...
Last edited by docwatson; 08-07-2010 at 06:59 PM..
Reason: clarity
Not until we settle the issue of Truth or Consequences... The reason I suspect an "axe to grind" is that you apply criticisms very selectively. You can't seriously argue that Boulder is an exclusive enclave and then extoll the virtues of SF, which is consistently criticized for being an elitist enclave full of snobs (read the California forums). You talk about diversity in Fort Collins but fail to acknowledge that its even whiter then Boulder. You criticize Boulder for trying a new approach to growth management and not getting everything right but then give Greenwood Village a pass because nobody expects them to even try. I personally don't care whether people moving to Colorado choose Denver, Fort Collins, Boulder, CO Springs, etc. (they all have their plusses and minuses) but I've noticed that the arguments against Boulder seem to be far more vitriolic then for most of these other potential destinations.
Not until we settle the issue of Truth or Consequences... The reason I suspect an "axe to grind" is that you apply criticisms very selectively. You can't seriously argue that Boulder is an exclusive enclave and then extoll the virtues of SF, which is consistently criticized for being an elitist enclave full of snobs (read the California forums). You talk about diversity in Fort Collins but fail to acknowledge that its even whiter then Boulder. You criticize Boulder for trying a new approach to growth management and not getting everything right but then give Greenwood Village a pass because nobody expects them to even try. I personally don't care whether people moving to Colorado choose Denver, Fort Collins, Boulder, CO Springs, etc. (they all have their plusses and minuses) but I've noticed that the arguments against Boulder seem to be far more vitriolic then for most of these other potential destinations.
Hmm .. if you review my responses, you'll see they were not vitriolic in the least until you went for the all-too-common "if you don't prefer Boulder, why don't you move to rural appalachia" type of remark.
No, Fort Collins is not more racially diverse - a bit more Hispanic, less Asian, about as white, if one looks at the stats. It is more economically diverse, particularly when one looks at young families and homeowners. It has more "hippies" in their 20s and 30s than in their 50s and 60s, and so is more fun! : ) If one were to point out flaws of Ft. Collins, I would probably agree rather than saying they have an axe to grind and telling them to move to Butte, a superfund site!
Additionally, you can see I prefer Portland (with affordable homes in the 200s) rather than SF/Oakland, with housing prices similar to or higher than Boulder's and certainly snob appeal (when I seriously considered staying there, it would've probably been a safer neighborhood of Oakland or somewhere like Daly City. Can you belive I wanted to work for Jerry Brown when he was Mayor of Oakland? Add to this jobs in my field pay 50-60% more in SF than CO, while there is no premuim for Boulder as its part of the Denver metro.)
I do not crtiicize Boulder's trying growth management (if you'll see I congratualte Boulder for that) but point out it is a less sophisticated system than ones used in Oregon, and has led to gentrification and LOTS of environmentally damaging commuting.
I do no give Greenwood Village "a pass" but rather state that no one moves to Highlands Ranch expecting to find a liberal, mixed-income, racially diverse, environmentally conscious community, so it would not be prodcutive to point this out. Whereas Boulder has many liberals who ostensibly should be concerned about what's going on in their community rather than telling people to move to French Lick, as fun as that sounds!
OK, I'm a liar, I did respond. Seriously, though, the personal tone of this thread is too much and I do not mean to offend, simply to communicate why I will not be staying in Boulder.
Last edited by docwatson; 08-07-2010 at 07:40 PM..
Hmm .. if you review my responses, you'll see they were not vitriolic in the least until you went for the all-too-common "if you don't prefer Boulder, why don't you move to rural appalachia" type of remark.
No, Fort Collins is not more racially diverse - a bit more Hispanic, less Asian, about as white, if one looks at the stats. It is more economically diverse, particularly when one looks at young families and homeowners. If one were to point out flaws of Ft. Collins, I would probably agree rather than saying they have an axe to grind and telling them to move to Butte, a superfund site!
Additionally, you can see I prefer Portland (with affordable homes in the 200s) rather than SF/Oakland, with housing prices similar to or higher than Boulder's.
I do not crtiicize Boulder's trying growth management (if you'll see I congratualte Boulder for that) but point out it is a less sophisticated system than ones used in Oregon, and has led to gentrification and LOTS of environmentally damaging commuting.
I do no give Greenwood Village "a pass" but rather state that no one moves to Highlands Ranch expecting to find a liberal, mixed-income, racially diverse community, environmentally conscious community, so it would not be prodcutive to point this out. Whereas Boulder has many liberals who ostensibly should be concerned about what's going on in their community rather than telling people to move to French Lick, as fun as that sounds!
OK, I'm a liar, I did respond. Seriously, though, the personal tone of this thread is too much and I do not mean to offend, simply to communicate why I will not be staying in Boulder.
I never told you to move to Butte but was rather pointing out that if you dislike exclusive cities, you've picked on odd set to consider moving to. My other references were tounge-in-cheek since a lot of the criticism seemed to be about Boulder's lack of perfection. (As an aside I have actually been to Utopia TX, but I'm not going to say whether it lives up to its name). Anyway, I hope you like where-ever you end up.
So I reviewed the pevious thread because I felt perhaps I was a bit vitriolic, as xeric suggested, perhaps I attacked all of Boulder, and said something I should appoloize for. So here it is:
Quote:
To make it short, Boulder is NOT an open-minded hippie or individualitst kinda place and hasn't been for some time ... it's an upper middle class community now drawing wealthy folks from around the country, as well as a locus of the over-acheiving "creative class" in high tech, name brand "organic" goods, yoga products, etc. Boulderites of all political leanings don't particularly want a lot more people here (although once you're here they are nice enough) and appreciate the weather and mountains. To me its not really progressive - just anti-growth/pro-open-space with some 1960s leftovers heaped on for good measure. (I think they even elected a pro-war, anti-growth County Commissioner a while back - priorities!). You pay a huge premium to live here, or live in a smaller community down the road. I won't judge if that is good or bad - that's the community it is. I certainly plan on moving in the near future, maybe Portland ...
My only thought is perhaps you've mistaken me for someone else? Otherwise, all I can say is, wow, you really seem to be sensitive about anything that may be construed as critical of Boulder ...
Other than that, I do find it odd that for one such as myself, who comes from an international family, who enjoys a diverse life in a medium-sized city, who thrives in a progressive culture, who appreicates historic architecture, and who loves to be close to nature as I can in many west coast cities, that you would leap to the conclusion I should somehow prefer places like Tulsa (which I've never been to, but I'm sure its nice place in its own right) to a wonderful city like Portland. Not to mention, not being in high tech, my career opportunities in a place like Portland or Seattle are so much greater than in Colorado. And then, as someone in my 30s, well, I just don't gain a lot from being in a city that is 30% college students. And remember, you may view Boulder differently when you're in your 30s.
Overall, I just find your reasoning a little odd ... that's all.
As for Truth or Consequences, I have heard its a nice little artsy town, but didn't have time to stop on the way to Utopia ...
Last edited by docwatson; 08-10-2010 at 06:47 PM..
Reason: spelling
So I reviewed the pevious thread because I felt perhaps I was a bit vitriolic, as xeric suggested, perhaps I attacked all of Boulder, and said something I should appoloize for. So here it is:
My only thought is perhaps you've mistaken me for someone else? Otherwise, all I can say is, wow, you really seem to be sensitive about anything that may be construed as critical of Boulder ...
Other than that, I do find it odd that for one such as myself, who comes from an international family, who enjoys a diverse life in a medium-sized city, who thrives in a progressive culture, who appreicates historic architecture, and who loves to be close to nature as I can in many west coast cities, that you would leap to the conclusion I should somehow prefer places like Tulsa (which I've never been to, but I'm sure its nice place in its own right) to a wonderful city like Portland. Not to mention, not being in high tech, my career opportunities in a place like Portland or Seattle are so much greater than in Colorado. And then, as someone in my 30s, well, I just don't gain a lot from being in a city that is 30% college students. And remember, you may view Boulder differently when you're in your 30s.
Overall, I just find your reasoning a little odd ... that's all.
As for Truth or Consequences, I have heard its a nice little artsy town, but didn't have time to stop on the way to Utopia ...
Not overly sensitive. I just got caught up in the debate. But it did get a bit out of hand (apologies for my part in that).
Boulder is full of people who all want to possess it in someway, and see themselves as better than their pet enemies. It has a bunch of really insensitive rich transplants who never worked a hard day in their lives. Chief Niwot's curse is real and destroys lives. There are ****ty Brits here who act like they own the place.
in all, the biggest problem seems like a lack of diversity. the CU students are probably the only friendly people here. Naropa is a lie. Seriously though, diversity seems to do wonders for communities. Seattle seems a lot happier to me than Boulder. Everywhere you go are smiling people, Whites walking with Asians, Blacks hanging out with Pakistanis, Mexicans dating Polish, Groups of people everywhere who are totally mixed. In Seattle and the Northwest I noticed that people are more like people. Race is the second or last thing you notice about someone. It really is quite amazing.
In Boulder and Denver, race is the number one priority of everyone. Self discrimination is the name of the game. People think they are protecting their paradise, so I guess they mean well. They just do not seem to realize the benefits of diversity. Or maybe these people I'm thinking of are just prejudice. Anyway, i like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
Dry air sucks. People in their late twenties start to look like people in their late forties in moist places. You see kids out here and you know they are kids but something makes you think--is that person fourteen or forty?
Please do not judge the metro area of Denver by attributes of Boulder. The aspects of Boulder are not necessarily reflective of Denver. Denver is much larger, much more diverse, and where people of different levels of income can thrive. Denver is able to absorb and disperse the extremes of personalities types that can overtake a smaller and economically closed community like Boulder which by its nature will distill a more homogeneous population.
Denver is much more welcoming to people of different races and ethnic groups and they live and work side by side.
I just went to my dentist in North Denver. The Dentist is from South America. The Dental Assistants are Hispanic, African American, European Polish, White. The waiting room was filled with Asians, Hispanics, Whites, Mixed Races both individual and family groups. All these people were relating together which is a typical daily scene in Denver.
I stopped at the grocery, on the way home--the same mixture of groups, either employees or customers. I heard different languages spoken from Spanish to Russian to Polish to English to Vietnamese. Some people were obviously of the new young vibrant educated class; some were old; some were poor. I drove through neighborhoods with young white woman jogging; young mothers pushing baby strollers; old people walking slowly down the street; old Hispanic men in the park fishing; young white men playing tennis. I saw an African American Woman talking to her Asian Neighbor, across the front lawn. This is North Denver and this is what you see.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 08-11-2010 at 05:55 PM..
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