Beware in Boulder (Littleton, Columbine, Golden: sales, crime, felony)

[IRISH1973]

Originally Posted by qfrost

I strongly disagree with this. Putting concealed guns into the public is a recipe for disaster. I personally think anyone who feels the need to carry a concealed gun has other issues they need to deal with. And it shouldn't be needed to be said, but guns can be taken away, and it's a whole different thing to shoot at a person than a target, no matter what so-called training you get.

Please provide real world data on the matter of people with lawfully concealed handguns creating a "disaster" and not an emotionally based argument. I won't even go into the unconstitutionality of what you're suggesting and will merely ask you to look at the state laws governing concealed carry in Vermont, Alaska, Arizona and Wyoming. I'll help you out and let you know that none of these states require a permit to be able to arm yourself with the most effective self defense tool currently available to American citizens. Simply look at the cities and states with the most stringest gun control laws and you'll also notice that they have the highest percentage of crime as well. Coincidence?

The only people who need guns are police, and the only use for guns in the civilian world is target shooting and hunting. Neither require you to hide a gun. When Rep. Giffords was shot, a well intentioned guy with a gun almost shot one of the good samaritans. This isn't the wild west, and we're not a third world banana republic. Better to be aware of your surroundings, or pay for a larger police force, or have the current one redirect their efforts.

In your initial paragraph you state that "guns can be taken away" and "it's a whole different thing to shoot at a person..." and then you go on to say only police should be able to carry guns. First off, police are human and so are the rest of the population. Secondly, police carry concealed all the time off duty. Why? Because there's plenty of nut jobs in the world robbing, raping and killing even when they're off duty. Thirdly, police get absolute lousy firearms training and most only qualify once a year and rarely shoot in between those times.

If you somehow believe that you can magically conjure up a cop when you need one immediately then go for it. The police's job isn't to protect each and every individual in society and it is your own responsibility to take care of yourself. They can't be everywhere at all times otherwise there simply wouldn't be any crime to begin with.

There are plenty of great people to get very good training from and on the short list I would recommend Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb, Kyle Defoor and there are several others in that same league if you'd like me to list more.

Best of luck and I hope that one day if you're ever in need of a means of protection that the police are just handy enough to be standing right there. Me personally I'll utilize the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution and defend not only myself but my family til the end.

[qfrost]

Originally Posted by IRISH1973

Please provide real world data on the matter of people with lawfully concealed handguns creating a "disaster" and not an emotionally based argument.

Common sense. Provide some concrete data that shows concealed carry laws have made anyone more safe, and not just gun nut rhetoric. I don't want anyone with a gun around my family in public. If they have such a low self esteem they feel the need to have a gun glued to them at all times, or like to pretend their cowboys, or secret agents or police or God's militia or think that the government (that's all of us) is out to get them, or whatever lame excuses gun nuts use, then they are a danger to the rest of us.

[qfrost]

Since you did ask:

A Nov. 2009 peer-reviewed study published in the American Journal of Public Health by Charles Branas, PhD, et al. found that someone carrying a gun for self-defense was 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault than an assault victim without a gun. Attackers often surprise victims, making it difficult to use a concealed handgun.

"Shall-issue" laws lead to increases in the rates of rape, robbery, and violent crime. A 1995 peer-reviewed study published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology by David McDowall, PhD, et al. of five urban cities found that gun homicide rates increased an average of 4.5% following the enactment of "shall-issue" laws. [12] A May 2009 peer-reviewed study by Yale professors Ian Ayres, PhD, and John Donohue, PhD, that appeared in the Econ Journal Watch found that "shall-issue" laws increased aggravated assault (149 KB) between 1977 and 2006. [33]

Responsible adults can still be a threat to public safety if they are armed. Between 1996 and 2000, the Violence Policy Center found that concealed handgun permit holders in Texas were arrested for weapon-related offenses at a rate 81% higher than the general Texas population (149 KB) . [34] Between May 2007 and Mar. 24, 2010, at least nine law enforcement officers and 142 private citizens were killed nationally by concealed handgun permit holders (approximately 0.003% of all murders in that time period). [14] [15]

Just the quickest search yields lots of information, then you weed out the gun nut lobby posts for the truth.

[IRISH1973]

Originally Posted by qfrost

Common sense. Provide some concrete data that shows concealed carry laws have made anyone more safe, and not just gun nut rhetoric. I don't want anyone with a gun around my family in public. If they have such a low self esteem they feel the need to have a gun glued to them at all times, or like to pretend their cowboys, or secret agents or police or God's militia or think that the government (that's all of us) is out to get them, or whatever lame excuses gun nuts use, then they are a danger to the rest of us.

Swing and a miss!!! Try reading John Lott Jr.'s book More Guns, Less Crime.

[IRISH1973]

Originally Posted by qfrost

Just the quickest search yields lots of information, then you weed out the gun nut lobby posts for the truth.

Everything you've mentioned is from a left wing, socialist or anti-gun organization that has manipulated the facts to fit their agenda. I don't have time right now but I'd be happy to prove every one of your supposed "facts" wrong.

Try reading www.injusticeeverywhere.com to educate yourself about the only ones you want to carry guns. Read www.keepandbeararms.com for up to date information on news articles where people use guns to not only save their lives but their loved ones.

No matter what bull**** anti-gun laws you come up with the criminals are still going to carry and use guns. Pull your head out of the sand and accept some personal responsibility for your own safety. Better yet, don't.

[qfrost]

And you subscribe to the gun lobby. But I've had a handgun shoved in my face, so unless you've also had the experience you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Suggesting someone carry a gun for safety is idiocy - and I am hear to tell you firsthand. There *is* no Dirty Harry moment for you to whip out that cherished safety blanket. You are NOT safer carrying a gun, only less so, and having had the experience to back that up, I recommend everyone here to just watch were you go, pay attention to your surroundings, and you'll never be in a situation I was in.

[qfrost]

And by the way, John Lott's book has been thoroughly debunked for the false-science it was. There were substantial flaws in his methodology intended to produce the results he desired. Swing and a MISS!

[prairiestate]

Originally Posted by qfrost

Common sense. Provide some concrete data that shows concealed carry laws have made anyone more safe, and not just gun nut rhetoric. I don't want anyone with a gun around my family in public. If they have such a low self esteem they feel the need to have a gun glued to them at all times, or like to pretend their cowboys, or secret agents or police or God's militia or think that the government (that's all of us) is out to get them, or whatever lame excuses gun nuts use, then they are a danger to the rest of us.

Home intruder shot to death in Chicago Heights - The SouthtownStar

So, you'd rather the home intruder be the only one armed?

[IRISH1973]

Originally Posted by qfrost

And you subscribe to the gun lobby. But I've had a handgun shoved in my face, so unless you've also had the experience you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Suggesting someone carry a gun for safety is idiocy - and I am hear to tell you firsthand. There *is* no Dirty Harry moment for you to whip out that cherished safety blanket. You are NOT safer carrying a gun, only less so, and having had the experience to back that up, I recommend everyone here to just watch were you go, pay attention to your surroundings, and you'll never be in a situation I was in.

You can stand there and be a victim, I'm protecting me and mine. Every single day people protect themselves with firearms, follow the link I posted earlier.

Ask the people who are still alive from these incidents if they would've liked to have had a means of self defense.

[LEFT]Nov. 5, 2009: The Army says 13 people were killed and 30 wounded in a shooting rampage at its Fort Hood base in Texas. The suspected lone gunman has been identified as Army psychiatrist Major Nidal Malik Hasan, one of the 30 injured.

April 3, 2009: A 41-year-old man opened fire at an immigrant community center in Binghamton, N.Y., killing 11 immigrants and two workers. Jiverly Wong, a Vietnamese immigrant and a former student at the center, killed himself as police rushed to the scene.

Feb. 14, 2008: Former student Steven Kazmierczak, 27, opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, fatally shooting five students and wounding 18 others before committing suicide.

Dec. 5, 2007: 19-year-old Robert A. Hawkins opened fire with a rifle in Omaha, Neb., at a Von Maur store in the Westroads Mall, killing eight people before taking his own life. Five more people were wounded, two critically.

April 16, 2007: Cho Seung-Hui, 23, fatally shot 32 people in a dorm and a classroom at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, then killed himself in the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history.

Feb. 12, 2007: 18-year-old Sulejman Talovic killed five and wounded four at the Trolley Square mall in Salt Lake City, Utah. He was then shot and killed by police.

Oct. 2, 2006: Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, shot to death five girls at West Nickel Mines Amish School in Pennsylvania, then killed himself.

March 21, 2005: 16-year-old student Jeffrey Weise killed nine people, including his grandfather and his grandfather's companion at home, and then five fellow students, a teacher and a security guard at Red Lake High School in Red Lake, Minnesota, before killing himself. Seven students were wounded.

March 12, 2005: Terry Ratzmann, 44, gunned down members of his congregation as they worshipped at the Brookfield Sheraton in Brookfield, Wisconsin, slaying seven and wounding four before killing himself.

July 29, 1999: Former day trader Mark Barton, 44, killed nine people in shootings at two Atlanta, Georgia, brokerage offices, then committed suicide.

April 20, 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, opened fire at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado, killing 12 classmates and a teacher and wounding 26 others before committing suicide in the school's library.

March 24, 1998: Andrew Golden, 11, and Mitchell Johnson, 13, killed four girls and a teacher at a Jonesboro, Arkansas, middle school. 10 others were wounded in the shooting.

October 16, 1991: George Hennard, 35, smashed his pickup truck through a Luby's Cafeteria window in Killeen, Texas, and fired on the lunchtime crowd with a high-powered pistol, killing 22 people. At least 20 others were wounded.
[/LEFT]

[IRISH1973]

Originally Posted by qfrost

And by the way, John Lott's book has been thoroughly debunked for the false-science it was. There were substantial flaws in his methodology intended to produce the results he desired. Swing and a MISS!

Prove it. Just because you write it on a forum doesn't make it so. He does have a rather impressive resume.

John Richard Lott Jr. (born May 8, 1958) is an American academic and political commentator. He has previously held research positions at academic institutions including the University of Chicago, Yale University, the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, and the University of Maryland, College Park, and at the non-academic conservative American Enterprise Institute. He holds a Ph.D. in economics from UCLA, and his areas of research include econometrics, law and economics, public choice theory, industrial organization, public finance, microeconomics, labor economics, and environmental regulation.

Either way I'm done arguing with you as it's a waste of time. You can play for tit for tat with someone else.