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Old 10-27-2019, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Preussen
536 posts, read 319,943 times
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This is mix of carrer achievements and head to head ability.

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Mike Tyson
4.Jack Johnson
5.George Foreman
6.Larry Holmes
7.Sonny Liston
8.Evander Holyfield
9.Joe Frazier
10.Rocky Marciano

Would you chande anything? Post your lists.
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Old 10-28-2019, 09:08 AM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
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Good list. Tyson was a killer up to the Buster Douglas match then a bum after that.

My grandfather always talked about how good Floyd Patterson was
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Old 10-28-2019, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Preussen
536 posts, read 319,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
Good list. Tyson was a killer up to the Buster Douglas match then a bum after that.

My grandfather always talked about how good Floyd Patterson was
Floyd Patterson was technically very gifted boxer but his mandible was very fragile. His potential fights with heavy handed offensive fighters like Foreman, Tyson, or Marciano would be almost certain early ko on him like with Liston.

I honestly do not think that after getting out of prison Mike Tyson even trained properly. He just did not give a damn by then. But head to head I would put Tyson as best heavyweight ever. Its' just that his reign was much shorter than the one of Ali or Louis so I can't really put him above them.

Lets also not forget that untill 60s most heayweights would be considered cruiserweights by todays standard. Many of them weighted less than 200 pounds. That is what makes it hard to compare them objectively to todays fighters.
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Old 10-30-2019, 09:31 AM
 
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I'm no boxing aficionado, but how is Holyfield not above Tyson when he beat him twice?
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Preussen
536 posts, read 319,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
I'm no boxing aficionado, but how is Holyfield not above Tyson when he beat him twice?
That is because he beat Tyson in 1996 and 1997 when Tyson was just shell of himself and did not even train to those fights. Had Holyfield beaten Tyson in 1986 and 1987 instead of 1996 and 1997 while Tyson was in his prime I would have ranked Holyfield above Tyson but that was not the case.

Rocky Marciano also beat Joe Louis but I as most people rank Joe Louis higher because when Marciano beat him he was just a shell of himself, broke guy who just needed money to pay his debts.

Of course it could be argued that some of those boxers should be above Tyson when taken into consideration their overall carrers longevity and their best wins but as I said before, my list is based as much on carrer longevity as it is on head to head skills, abilities when those fighters were in their primes. And prime for prime I would favor Tyson above any heavyweight fighter ever including Louis and Ali. Ali is the only one that I would have my doubts but I would still pick 86-88 Tyson.

Of course if someone would make this list differentely I would not mind as all of those guys were phenomenal fighters. It is all subjective. Regards.

Last edited by WestPreussen; 10-30-2019 at 11:34 AM..
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Old 10-31-2019, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Scottsdale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
That is because he beat Tyson in 1996 and 1997 when Tyson was just shell of himself and did not even train to those fights. Had Holyfield beaten Tyson in 1986 and 1987 instead of 1996 and 1997 while Tyson was in his prime I would have ranked Holyfield above Tyson but that was not the case.

Rocky Marciano also beat Joe Louis but I as most people rank Joe Louis higher because when Marciano beat him he was just a shell of himself, broke guy who just needed money to pay his debts.

Of course it could be argued that some of those boxers should be above Tyson when taken into consideration their overall carrers longevity and their best wins but as I said before, my list is based as much on carrer longevity as it is on head to head skills, abilities when those fighters were in their primes. And prime for prime I would favor Tyson above any heavyweight fighter ever including Louis and Ali. Ali is the only one that I would have my doubts but I would still pick 86-88 Tyson.

Of course if someone would make this list differentely I would not mind as all of those guys were phenomenal fighters. It is all subjective. Regards.
Tyson was at his best in the 1980s. His fight with Michael Spinks was ridiculously one-sided. The problem with that Buster Douglas fight was Tyson's corner - they were horrible and couldn't close his cut. His eyes got swollen, and he lost his vision. After that it was an easy knockout by Douglas. Tyson should have kept Rooney in his corner, but he was treated badly as a trainer. Tyson also lost an ally in Teddy Atlas when he mistreated his sister. So, Tyson's inabilty to work well with the great trainers of his time hurt him badly. By 1995 he was past his prime after all that beating he took. The prison term didn't help either. I read the book by Jose Torres about Tyson, and at the end of the book he wrote about a Jewish concentration survivor who told him that Tyson would not last long. The Jewish survivor spoke of WWII and the concentration camps. He said Tyson's situation in the impoverished neighborhoods of his youth were like concentration camps. The Jewish survivor said he knew what it took to survive a harsh concentration camp - only a few make it. And he thought Tyson was not one of them - hence he would lose soon. This prediction was made around 1988 when Tyson was still undefeated and taking the ring by storm. That Jewish guy was right.

I agree that Joe Louis was well past his prime when he fought Marciano. It was a mismatch. But still, I can see why Marciano is ranked lower than some fighters because he really should have lost to Archie Moore who should have knocked him out. But the referee started the count late. In that time, the 1950s, segregation and racism were in full force, so a white referee gave Marciano a slow count. But still, it can be argued that if Moore was able to knock him down and not get a fair count, then why not just knock him down again? I guess Moore punched himself out during that early knowdown. But he was also about 45 years old when he almost beat Marciano. I can't picture a 45 year old Marciano going 9 rounds with the elite heavyweights of the 1960s - Henry Cooper, Ali, Liston, etc. Hence, some boxing historians don't rank Marciano at #1 all-time, but he was still great for his era.

My favorite fight of the 1940s was a young Billy Conn against a young Joe Louis. Conn, a light heavyweight, was an Irish boxer. He was actually ahead on points into the 13th round. Conn's mistake was in punching himself out in trying to knock out Louis. If he had just played safe in the last two rounds he probably would have won on points. But Louis made him pay for that.
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Old 11-01-2019, 04:39 AM
 
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My opinion, Rocky Marciano at #1.. no (professional) opponent ever proved they were better. /peace
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Old 11-01-2019, 04:58 AM
 
Location: Preussen
536 posts, read 319,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grad_student200 View Post
Tyson was at his best in the 1980s. His fight with Michael Spinks was ridiculously one-sided. The problem with that Buster Douglas fight was Tyson's corner - they were horrible and couldn't close his cut. His eyes got swollen, and he lost his vision. After that it was an easy knockout by Douglas. Tyson should have kept Rooney in his corner, but he was treated badly as a trainer. Tyson also lost an ally in Teddy Atlas when he mistreated his sister. So, Tyson's inabilty to work well with the great trainers of his time hurt him badly. By 1995 he was past his prime after all that beating he took. The prison term didn't help either. I read the book by Jose Torres about Tyson, and at the end of the book he wrote about a Jewish concentration survivor who told him that Tyson would not last long. The Jewish survivor spoke of WWII and the concentration camps. He said Tyson's situation in the impoverished neighborhoods of his youth were like concentration camps. The Jewish survivor said he knew what it took to survive a harsh concentration camp - only a few make it. And he thought Tyson was not one of them - hence he would lose soon. This prediction was made around 1988 when Tyson was still undefeated and taking the ring by storm. That Jewish guy was right.

I agree that Joe Louis was well past his prime when he fought Marciano. It was a mismatch. But still, I can see why Marciano is ranked lower than some fighters because he really should have lost to Archie Moore who should have knocked him out. But the referee started the count late. In that time, the 1950s, segregation and racism were in full force, so a white referee gave Marciano a slow count. But still, it can be argued that if Moore was able to knock him down and not get a fair count, then why not just knock him down again? I guess Moore punched himself out during that early knowdown. But he was also about 45 years old when he almost beat Marciano. I can't picture a 45 year old Marciano going 9 rounds with the elite heavyweights of the 1960s - Henry Cooper, Ali, Liston, etc. Hence, some boxing historians don't rank Marciano at #1 all-time, but he was still great for his era.

My favorite fight of the 1940s was a young Billy Conn against a young Joe Louis. Conn, a light heavyweight, was an Irish boxer. He was actually ahead on points into the 13th round. Conn's mistake was in punching himself out in trying to knock out Louis. If he had just played safe in the last two rounds he probably would have won on points. But Louis made him pay for that.
Not to mention that Buster Douglas should have been knocked out. The count for him in that fight was much longer than 10. I think it was 17 seconds.

With Marciano what speaks against him is that he fought in one of the weakest heavyweight eras in boxing similar to Ktitschkos. And he retired early before he could match himself with other great fighters at their primes like Patterson or Liston. He also often was losing his fights to past primes opponents like Walcott until knocking them out later in the fights. Not that there is somethnig wrong with it. But I think those would be reasons why most people do not rate him as much as Ali and Louis are rated.
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Old 11-02-2019, 04:54 AM
 
609 posts, read 346,319 times
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This is contraversial but i loved Lennox Lewis or Larry Holmes, both were boring fighters but I loved them because of their jabs. LH could KO people with his jab.

For me, amazing power is George. To this day, we are challenged to find someone with equal power. SMH at his disabilitating knockouts, amazing.

ALI is the greatest because he was a tactician, fast and amazing jaw. I wish he was still alive.
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Old 04-02-2020, 12:27 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
357 posts, read 124,508 times
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That's a fact; the Buster Douglass knockout was the longest count we ever saw
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