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Then nothing I say will help you "get it." There is no point in giving up the world's goods and lifestyle if there is not a much more important service to what they are doing. Paul said, "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain."
A person who believes that God IS ALL can't "take God out of it." IT IS about God as well as all of our lives should be.
Yes, I do believe this very passionately.
it is not a game of tag. It is a life of purpose and a desire to help others find this incredible purpose that you have found.
Dawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Dawn,
I don't necessarily think it is the particular person's agenda to try and convince people to convert. I think it's the church's way of doing it. I mean, what better way to win the hearts and minds of someone than sending doctors and aid workers to wartorn poverty stricken countries and taking care of them. All the while, you are teaching them the word of the God you believe in. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there shouldn't be doctors, food suppliers, and aid workers in these countries. I'm just saying, take the God part out of it and let them live as they have for centuries with their own beliefs. For some reason, I think that "take the God out of it" is going to make someone mad. And that's my whole logic. Personally, I think Christians like to play a game I call "spiritual tag". Here's how it works. You can't go to heaven unless you are "saved". So, the object of the game is to spread the word to as many people that don't know and then you say "TAG, YOUR TURN TO MAKE A DECISION". It's a catch-22 for the person. As soon as they hear about it they are put into a decision that will effect the rest of their eternity. The christian tells them about Jesus and being saved, all the while reminding them that not being "saved" will condemn you. So, in essence their goal is to "Tag" everyone they can. I call that BULLSH*T
Well, I am pretty much right in line with you. I don't adhere to this philosophy, although I would love to. I still do have questions though.
Dawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay
Dawn,
It is a tough subject. I'm more than sure, in fact, if I were a betting woman which I'm not, I would lay money on the fact that tomorrow Jeff will come in and give you quite a treatise on it! I would love to believe this doctrine myself. But I have examined both sides of the issue, the exegesis of the words in question which universalists point to as "proof", but the fact of the matter is, it just doesn't line up with what the whole counsel of scripture teaches. If Jesus had some kind of "second chance" scenario in mind, He certainly "hid" it well in the Bible. I would prefer to just try to rest my questions, my fears, etc. in the hands of a loving God who in fact, endowed me with my own sense of justice and mercy.
This is a little off thread but it kinda applies. We have all been discussing this somewhat (ad nauseum) on another thread... for oh, about the last 50 years No, actually, it only SEEMS that long.
The physical place of a heaven and hell (the hot place) are spurious doctrines, brought in by Constantiople to appease the pagans of the time and get them to join the Church. Most learned theologians know this. But evidently is perpetuated in the pulpit to keep people in line, to "do what is right", etc. I do not believe there is a "place" called heaven, or a "place" called hell. They two are what we make of them here on earth.
WHERE DID YOU GET THAT? Not from the Bible! That is not true, it has nothing to do with your actions aside from accepting Christ as Savior.
Do you honestly believe this?? So a murderer won't go to Hell if they accept Christ, but a peaceful, GOOD Buddhist will? Luckily they don't believe in Hell, and luckily neither do I... because I'm sorry, but that concept still amazes me every time I hear Christians say it.
Hitler did accept your man-god. He was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria. As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch, which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church. As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy:
“I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.
Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt:
“The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.”
Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party
He worked closely with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)
Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings:
“The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines, and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda.
So there you have it......Hitler was a Christian (waiting for cries of "Ah...but he wasn't a REAL Christian).
When you get to heaven Christians.....give my regards to Adolf!!
I have to say this was very interesting Thanks!! You know some will say "he was Catholic is that really Christian"!!
I don't think the Buddhist will have any problem with being in hell because of this:
Excerpt from "Islamic Hell: Absurdity of Science and Logic" by Denis Giron:
The idea of Hell is both illogical and scientifically absurd. How can eternal fire be any kind of divine punishment that one should fear? You cannot be burned for eternity. Your body only offers a given and finite amount of fuel for fire. Eventually there will be nothing left to burn.
Trying to get around such arguments, the believer in Hell will claim Hellfire consists of "smokeless fire" and that it "burns, but does not consume". If the fire does not consume one's flesh, there is no pain! Pain is caused by neural receptors in the brain alerting you to cells being destroyed. If the fire does not consume one's flesh, no cells are destroyed, and thus there is no pain!
Perhaps some supporters of the Hellfire theory will offer the idea that your "soul" is sent to Hell and not your body. If one is without their body, they are without cells, without neural receptors, and therefore without pain. These are scientific facts about pain that primitive cultures were not aware of. Those who believe Hell exists can only describe eternal damnation as a "phenomenon which science cannot explain".
While such a description makes belief in Hell something of the realm of fantasy, there are still stern arguments against such a concept. Whether there is pain or not, eternal flames is not a true punishment to be feared. If it is eternal, there is ample time to grow accustomed to one's environment. Surely eternity is enough time to develop a higher tolerance of pain. There have been examples of human beings who reached a mental state where they do not feel pain. An example would be Buddhist monks in Viet Nam who could set themselves on fire, and show no reaction while burning to death. Such people would have nothing to fear from Hell.
I believe if the Buddists have no law (for example) then they can break no law and as such cannot be judged according to a law ( if they never had it).
God will have to educate the Buddists on the other side and give them the opportunity to except or reject Him; and then, God will judge them according to the law that they have now learned and accepted or rejected.
EVERYONE IS WITHOUT EXCUSE:
Romans 1:18-20
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Do you honestly believe this?? So a murderer won't go to Hell if they accept Christ, but a peaceful, GOOD Buddhist will? Luckily they don't believe in Hell, and luckily neither do I... because I'm sorry, but that concept still amazes me every time I hear Christians say it.
What is so amazing about it? That you can't work your way into heaven? That you think you have to be "approved" before you can get in? That God isn't keeping tabs on your behavior to see if you're good enough. None of us are good enough! That is why Jesus...who did not sin died in my place. He took the punishment I deserved and wiped the slate clean as long as I acknowledge him and his sacrifice for me! God's ways are not our ways. He loves us PERIOD. We can do horrible things and be forgiven! Man is not capable of that kind of love. All He asks is that we accept Him as Savior and love Him in return. It is amazing...love like that. I know, hard to comprehend isn't it?
What is so amazing about it? That you can't work your way into heaven? That you think you have to be "approved" before you can get in? That God isn't keeping tabs on your behavior to see if you're good enough. None of us are good enough! That is why Jesus...who did not sin died in my place. He took the punishment I deserved and wiped the slate clean as long as I acknowledge him and his sacrifice for me! God's ways are not our ways. He loves us PERIOD. We can do horrible things and be forgiven! Man is not capable of that kind of love. All He asks is that we accept Him as Savior and love Him in return. It is amazing...love like that. I know, hard to comprehend isn't it?
"Man is not capable of that kind of love"
I have to especially disagree with that point Jazzed. Even mass-murderers parents forgive their children. Parents forgive nearly everything. And so does God; therefore, he forgives the Buddhists and Hindus who live respectable lives.
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which I'm not, I would lay money on the fact that tomorrow Jeff will come in and give you quite a treatise on it! I would love to believe this doctrine myself. But I have examined both sides of the issue, the exegesis of the words in question which universalists point to as "proof", but the fact of the matter is, it just doesn't line up with what the whole counsel of scripture teaches. If Jesus had some kind of "second chance" scenario in mind, He certainly "hid" it well in the Bible. I would prefer to just try to rest my questions, my fears, etc. in the hands of a loving God who in fact, endowed me with my own sense of justice and mercy.
