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Old 05-14-2012, 01:25 PM
 
Location: California
3,634 posts, read 2,852,324 times
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There are elements of truth in this, but there are ways of presenting facts to give a ridiculously biased view of things. It's factually true that Roman Catholics believe you have to engage in ritual cannibalism every week in order to avoid burning in hell forever and that they believe an ex-member of the Hitler Youth to be their infallible moral guide - but it doesn't exactly give an accurate view of Catholicism, does it?

It's propaganda, probably from the Trimondis. They used to be Buddhists but are now Maoists. Knowing various things about Buddhism they've been able to write misleading texts. If you know enough about Tibet and Buddhism you can see where they are getting things from, but can also see it's being spun in a way to deliberately mislead the uninformed. Sounds like they have confused another victim.
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Old 05-14-2012, 02:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sidneytinhtut View Post
I know very little about TB, but it appears to me that the philosophy is a bit contradictory even if there was any truth in it; I am wondering how could a Lama reach orgasm without ejaculation. If the philosophy applies only to females, then, the male/Lama may never have the chance to become enlightened.
I've noticed there are contradictions in Buddhism in general. They say there's no "soul", and yet there's "rebirth" which the Tibetans call "reincarnation", and view it as the same person being reborn over and over. This doesn't square with Buddhist teachings about no "soul", no permanent "self". I think this is the influence of folk traditions (shamanism) on Tibetan Buddhism

Sidney, take a look at Tantric sex sometime--wild stuff! It's all about how to prevent ejaculation at the moment of orgasm. It turns out, those are two physiologically separate functions, and you can learn to separate them, and prevent ejaculation. It leads to a full-body orgasm (they call it 'The Great Bliss'). Those monks are having a lot more fun in the monasteries than they let on, lol!
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Old 05-14-2012, 02:33 PM
 
24 posts, read 29,959 times
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Originally Posted by Kerby W-R View Post
There are elements of truth in this, but there are ways of presenting facts to give a ridiculously biased view of things. It's factually true that Roman Catholics believe you have to engage in ritual cannibalism every week in order to avoid burning in hell forever and that they believe an ex-member of the Hitler Youth to be their infallible moral guide - but it doesn't exactly give an accurate view of Catholicism, does it?

It's propaganda, probably from the Trimondis. They used to be Buddhists but are now Maoists. Knowing various things about Buddhism they've been able to write misleading texts. If you know enough about Tibet and Buddhism you can see where they are getting things from, but can also see it's being spun in a way to deliberately mislead the uninformed. Sounds like they have confused another victim.
I've ever understood the cannibalism angle in Catholicism. I'm told they believe the wafer is literally the flesh of Jesus. Can someone explain that?

My gf had problems with a number of monks who came on to her, and she had to keep moving from one Buddhist group to another, only to find herself escaping the frying pan to land in the fire. I started doing some reading to see if I could find an explanation to what was going on, and was blown away to learn that Tibetan Buddhism's highest (esoteric) rituals are a sex cult. I would caution any women against joining a group. One popular lama from Bhutan had posted on his website that a friend of his was teaching in the West, "has several consorts, and no complaints". He posted this at the end of a rant about women complaining about sexual harassment or worse, assaults, by their Tibetan monk teachers. Some of these guys come to the West with the premeditated intent of getting with as many women as possible in the temple. This doesn't sound like a legit religion to me. Or maybe it is, but it's obviously corrupt, probably from the days of the Tibetan theocracy.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:01 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Originally Posted by SanFranStan View Post
I've noticed there are contradictions in Buddhism in general. They say there's no "soul", and yet there's "rebirth" which the Tibetans call "reincarnation", and view it as the same person being reborn over and over. This doesn't square with Buddhist teachings about no "soul", no permanent "self". I think this is the influence of folk traditions (shamanism) on Tibetan Buddhism

Sidney, take a look at Tantric sex sometime--wild stuff! It's all about how to prevent ejaculation at the moment of orgasm. It turns out, those are two physiologically separate functions, and you can learn to separate them, and prevent ejaculation. It leads to a full-body orgasm (they call it 'The Great Bliss'). Those monks are having a lot more fun in the monasteries than they let on, lol!
I bolded where you answered your own question. I'm guessing that in those traditions there is a "thing that lives and reincarnates" but no "soul" as a permanent self.

Tantric ideas seem odd to me however, why would ejaculation be the "sinful" aspect of sexual practices? teaching such meaningless practices might invite unchaste monks to take advantage of the devotees.
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Old 05-15-2012, 03:35 AM
 
Location: UK
121 posts, read 68,048 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanFranStan View Post
I've noticed there are contradictions in Buddhism in general. They say there's no "soul", and yet there's "rebirth" which the Tibetans call "reincarnation", and view it as the same person being reborn over and over. This doesn't square with Buddhist teachings about no "soul", no permanent "self". I think this is the influence of folk traditions (shamanism) on Tibetan Buddhism

Sidney, take a look at Tantric sex sometime--wild stuff! It's all about how to prevent ejaculation at the moment of orgasm. It turns out, those are two physiologically separate functions, and you can learn to separate them, and prevent ejaculation. It leads to a full-body orgasm (they call it 'The Great Bliss'). Those monks are having a lot more fun in the monasteries than they let on, lol!
There are two main schools in Buddhism, Theravada or the Way of Elders is the orthrodox school where the teachings of the Buddha are not altered in anyway to suit any purpose, and its objective is to reach enlightenment ASAP.
Whereas, Mahayana or the Greater Way is a newer school that appears to have developed around the time of Jesus. This school has substantially altered the Buddha's teachings to suit the majority of people of the prevailing era in the history. Their objective is to salvage as many people as possible before going into enlightenment; hence, much grandier objective at a cost of more suffering in the rounds of samsara or the cycle of rebirths.
Vajrayana is a branch of Mahaya that emphasizes more on rituals and rites than on Vipasanna or insight meditation. They practice TB with the hope of gaining enlightenment, which is against the original teaching of the Buddha. The Buddha taught about three main factors that cause suffering in the rounds of the Samsara; viz. Avijja or wrong views that lack wisdom or insight, Tanha or taking enjoyment in sensual pleasures including sex, and Sankhara or roughly translated as responses or reactions to the five senses plus thoughts.
Obviously, the practice of TB would prolong the existence in the rounds of Samsara even if you were successful in preventing ejaculation or not since you indulge in sexual pleasures. If they are skilful in their other precepts (e.g. refrain from killing, stealing, telling lies etc..) and practice the three ways of Brahma gods, viz. Metta or loving kindness, Garuna or compassion or empathy, and Mudhita or rejoice in others' successes they may be reborn in good destinations and meet future buddhas (only one left out of the five to becoming a buddha in this world cycle) and may become enlightened or salvaged sometime in the endless Samsara.

Regarding your view on the context of No-soul contradiction, I have copied and pasted from my post on No Soul doctrine from the thread 'Doctrine of No-Soul-Anatta'.

In Buddhism everything is measured by two parameters; viz. absolute Truth (Paramatta cissa) and relative Truth (Samudhi Cissa).

We live in a world where relativity is the key for comparison and description, and we know, understand and describe everything in relative terms, which is called Samudhi Cissa in Pali. It is only partially correct, but not perfect or cannot be bolied down to fit or applicable to everybody.

Whereas, Paramatta Cissa is hard to understand, but is the ultimate and absolute Truth that only a few could understand it properly. If one understands it properly one will accquire the Wisdom or will have overcome the primodal barrier of every life forms in the universe, including so-called Gods, Angels, and everyone else known to us. If one understands it by theory and practice one has overcome the first barrier of the ultimate Truth known as 'Avijja' in Pali. However, there are two more barriers ahead; viz. Tanha or enjoying sensual pleasures and Sankhara or reactions either positively or negatively before one becomes fully enlightened.

I will now continue trying to explain the unexplainable using relative Truth on Anatta, which is the topic in question, although I know that the majority in the loop will refute it.

Anatta, despite its popular usage, only a few will understand it properly due to the above reasons. I'm not going to repeat what have already been discussed. If we were to waterdown and analyse a person or a being into its basic and elementary components there are only five; viz. Rupa Khanda or the corporal, Vedana Khanda or sensations, Sanat Khanda or perceived senses, Sankhara Khanda or reactive components, and Vinana Khanda or the consciousness.

There is nothing called Atta or an unchanging soul in a being. However, in relative terms Atta is the consciousness that goes or transmigrates into another body after dying. This knowledge is the realtive Truth, but when one knows this phenomenon with ultimate Wisdom it is not Atta but the Vinana Khanda since the last consciousness or simply as a thought that disspiates immediately when a new thought emerges to continue with the next existence. This process goes on and on without interruption. That's why most religions regard it as the soul or Atta, but it has changed although it retains some information associated with the previous life.

Buddhism as we know, takes the middle path between the two extremes; viz. religions that accept Atta or soul and the other concept that we call it Atheism or Anatta in a relative sense that lacks Paramatta Cissa or ultimate Truth/Wisdom.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:33 PM
 
Location: State of Relaxation
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The Buddha never taught mundane truth vs. Ultimate or Absolute Truth. That was the interpretation of Nagarjuna and later commentators. There's no need for a Two Truths Doctrine. In fact, it seems to cause more problems than it solves.
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Old 05-16-2012, 04:43 AM
 
Location: UK
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The Buddha never taught mundane truth vs. Ultimate or Absolute Truth. That was the interpretation of Nagarjuna and later commentators. There's no need for a Two Truths Doctrine. In fact, it seems to cause more problems than it solves.
The Buddha only taught in concise messages to help us to enlightenment in Pali which is a phonetic language that was not documented in writing until later period. Pali language, being phonetic has various meanings to each word.
Sammuti/samudhi literally means a label, and when used as sammuti sacca/samudhi cissa it is translated as conventional truth. It is also the opposite to paramatha-sacca, absolute or ultimate truth. The word 'paramatha' was in Abhidhamma which is the most abstract of the Three Canons (Ti Pitaka) and is taught by the Buddha, firstly to the celestial/extra-terrestial beings during the lent and later to Anandar, his brother.
Moreover, the second Noble Truth, Samudaya sassa, Truth of the origin, stems from the word samudhi to explicit the cause of suffering which is attachment to all labelled things.

It is very important to respect 'sammuti-sacca' or conventional/relative truth although we must try to know its ultimate and absolute Truth/reality in order to get enlightened.

I will give you an example to illustrate this importance. In ultimate reality or absolute sense there is no self, no persons, no relatives, no families, but a composition of the five Khandas which are corporeal/physical body, sensual stimuli, sense identifications, reactions, and consciousness.
Those who misinterpret this truth may regard that it is right to have sex with anybody since there is no family, no parents, no children, no brothers and sisters, but the combition of the five Khandas. Just imagine would it be appropriate to regard this Truth in ultimate terms and commit incense?

Is the philosophy of TB originated from this sort of misinterpretation and started having sex with anybody to realise the bliss and get enlightened?

Please follow the lead for more explanation on conventional or relative truth 'sammuti-sacca' at www.palikanon.com
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Old 07-03-2012, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Europe
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Originally Posted by Sidneytinhtut View Post
It sounded like SGI is not a Theravada practice; more of Zen or Shinto I suppose. A cult in Mahayana practice known as Tantric Buddhism may involve sex as part of the practice for gaining enlightenment, which is getting popular in the West.

SGI is an organization in the Nirchiren school tradition of Japanese Buddhism. The Nichiren sect was founded more or less in the same period of turmoil as the Jodo Shin Shu. (Just as an aside, tantric Buddhism in Japan is the Shingon denomination.)

The monk Nichiren focused his preaching solely on the Lotus Sutra, and he was (for a Buddhist) extremely hostile to Zen, Jodo Shinshu, and all other Buddhist sects. His denunciations of these other schools of Buddhism read almost as incoherently volatile as some of the ones on C-D forums.

The Shogunate eventually exerted rigid control over all Buddhist sects and temples, and Nichiren Buddhism settled into its own quiet niche.

SGI was founded by a lay person early in the 20th century as a lay movement, the clergy of the Nichiren sect as far as I know have always had a somewhat cautious relationship with the organization. My understanding was that this was because it was lay-run, and they did not want to get entangled in endorsing a movement over which they had no real control. The temple clergy did consecrate the scrolls of the Lotus Sutra passages that SGI members keep in their homes and chant in front of, and there are scrolls in their centers where group chanting is done.

They achieved a bad rep in the U.S. in the early 70's because of their emphasis on worldly success, and for teaching that chanting would help you acquire the things you wanted. It also considered homosexuality as evil and homosexual members were constantly pressured to marry SGI members of the opposite sex. (In this it was at this time rather like Scientology is.)

In the 70's the organization was notorious in the U.S. for aggressive proselytizing rather in the manner some of the more extreme Christian denominations. I never heard, however, of dating being used as a lure, they were usually much much less subtle than that!

At some point in the 80's or 90's a huge rift developed between this organization in the U.S. and the Nichiren temple clergy in Japan...I no longer remember why. For a time at least the clergy would no longer participate in consecrating scrolls for the organization. How that all worked out, and what the relationship between Soka Gakkai and the temple clergy is I do not know.

I do know that the organization has totally changed its attitude toward homosexuals because I have read on the Internet a letter to SGI members attending a gay and lesbian conference of some sort, and it was very benevolent in tone and wishing them a successful conference, etc.

I did have two friends in Boston who belonged to it in the 90's, and it seemed to have lost some of its previous hyper-aggressiveness and become a friendlier, more laid-back organization. Both were gay, and neither would have belonged to any group that was homophobic.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:32 AM
 
Location: State of Relaxation
31,231 posts, read 16,472,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidneytinhtut View Post

It is very important to respect 'sammuti-sacca' or conventional/relative truth although we must try to know its ultimate and absolute Truth/reality in order to get enlightened.

I will give you an example to illustrate this importance. In ultimate reality or absolute sense there is no self, no persons, no relatives, no families, but a composition of the five Khandas which are corporeal/physical body, sensual stimuli, sense identifications, reactions, and consciousness.
Those who misinterpret this truth may regard that it is right to have sex with anybody since there is no family, no parents, no children, no brothers and sisters, but the combition of the five Khandas. Just imagine would it be appropriate to regard this Truth in ultimate terms and commit incense?

Is the philosophy of TB originated from this sort of misinterpretation and started having sex with anybody to realise the bliss and get enlightened?
Why is that passage bolded? Is this your point, or a translation or paraphrasing of something from the canon? Just clarifying.

I don't think we need to conceptualize things in terms of relative vs. ultimate/absolute truth in order to reach enlightenment. I think this is used as a teaching tool for students, I don't think this is what the Buddha actually taught. The Buddha also didn't teach that there is no self. He taught a Middle Way between a fixed, immutable self, and no self. He taught an ever-evolving self, a self that can transform from one clinging to the material world and one's place in it to one who is Liberated from clinging and defilements.

"Just imagine would it be appropriate to regard this Truth in ultimate terms and commit incense (sic)?"
You mean "incest", right? Well, this is exactly how this Truth is regarded in Highest Yoga Tantra. Some of the initiation ceremonies involved incest (along with consumption of the "Five Ambrosias") so the initiate could prove he had attained a state beyond conventional Truth.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:51 AM
 
Location: State of Relaxation
31,231 posts, read 16,472,166 times
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Originally Posted by SanFranStan View Post
I've noticed there are contradictions in Buddhism in general. They say there's no "soul", and yet there's "rebirth" which the Tibetans call "reincarnation", and view it as the same person being reborn over and over. This doesn't square with Buddhist teachings about no "soul",no permanent "self". I think this is the influence of folk traditions (shamanism) on Tibetan Buddhism
I think the "no permanent self" is the key to resolving the seeming contradiction. The consciousness that leaves the body and attaches to another one being born is an ever-evolving consciousness. Being that the goal for Buddhist practitioners is reaching enlightenment over the course of many rebirths, the consciousness is evolving, we hope, closer to enlightenment with each rebirth. I don't see a contradiction there.

Inner Asian shamanic beliefs did emphasize the human soul as the highest earthly entity, though. It's interesting to see how this has conflated with Buddhist teachings on rebirth in TB.

P.S. I had the impression that the Trimondis were Maoists, then became Buddhists...?
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