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As far as Whole Foods, does anyone know why they are not building in Buffalo?.
The Amherst Town Center project that just cleared the lawsuits is going to have either Whole Foods or Trader's I forget which one it was, but it has been announced.
I agree that Wegmans could be part of the issue, but Cleveland has nice grocery stores that are Wegmans-esque, like Heinans (with about 10 stores), they also have at least 3 Whole Foods, and a florida-based chain called Fresh Market, that's also pretty nice. There are even a couple brand new Giants that are decent. Plenty of competition, and yet the TJs are always crazy busy.
I had heard TJs was snooping around in our area, but made no firm commitment. It would be great if they do move into that new lifestyle center they're planning on Maple!
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Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
Maybe the difference with Cleveland is that they don't have a grocery store like Wegman's that can compete with the best of them. So, that could be the difference. Even in my area, I've seen Ontario plates at some of the smaller Wegman's here, let alone the fact that the biggest Wegmans is in DeWitt just east of Syracuse.
Here's the scoop on why chain stores and restaurants don't come to Buffalo, or when they do, it's years after they're everywhere else in the country.
First, some mythbusting: it's not because they're afraid of competition, or because Buffalo is a city that is supposedly fiercely loyal to local businesses. There is only one type of business where chains that entered the market have failed, for the most part: pizza. Buffalo has a very unique local style of pizza; go more than 30 miles past the city, and it's hard to find. Buffalonians LOVE Buffalo-style pizza, while those outside the region think it's too bread-like and sweet.
Okay, so why is that chain store or restaurant you fell in love with in Charlotte or Columbus nowhere near Buffalo?
* The Buffalo area doesn't have a retail lifestyle center like Legacy Village in Cleveland or The Village of Rochester Hills in Detroit. This keeps out upper middle-end chains that usually seek out such venues, such as Restoration Hardware and Z Gallerie.
* The Buffalo area doesn't have any large, contiguous blocks of upper-middle class suburbia; and thus no areas where household incomes average $75,000 and up in a five-mile radius from a retail site; it's a demographic that is a must among many chains. The Williamsville/East Amherst/Clarence area isn't very large relative to the region as a whole, and it's positively lower-middle class compared to Oakland County, Michigan, east suburban Cleveland, and even east suburban Rochester.
* Suburban Buffalo doesn't have any concentrated edge city-type white collar employment centers that would generate lunch traffic for middle- to upper-end chain restaurants. Office parks in Amherst are too small and scattered apart to create any kind of critical mass that upper middle-end chain restaurants would be drawn to. Thus, no Houston's, Champs, J. Alexander, California Pizza Kitchen, and so on.
* Buffalo's regional population continues to see losses, and few businesses want to enter a market where their customer base will shrink over time.
* Even if a chain store may be profitable in Buffalo, the return on investment will still be lower than if the retailer or restaurateur opened yet another location in an established market. Sure, a new Trader Joe's might do great in Buffalo, but a third and fourth TJ's in the Cleveland area would do even better.
* Buffalo is in a no man's land for logistics; a toll is required to enter or leave the metro area on an expressway (only one of three major metros in the United States that is "toll-locked"), and it's about half way between distribution centers and commissaries serving the Northeast Corridor and Great Lakes Midwest. Basically, Buffalo is harder to get to than other peer metros. Toll-locking is another reason why Rochester and Syracuse often get new retail and restaurant chains years before Buffalo; I-390 and I-81 are free, while I-90 isn't.
* The zoning and development review process in Buffalo and its suburbs is very unpredictable. Developers will live with strict zoning, sign regulations, architectural controls and so on if the process is predictable, and regulations clearly spell out what is expected from them. Blame the lack of municipal planning agencies in the region for that one.
* For cultural reasons, compared to their peers in other metros Buffalo-area entrepreneurs with the financial means to get a franchise don't. Thus, Joey Canoli or Theodopolis Getalotopus will sink $300K into open yet another run-of-red-sauce Italian restaurant or Greek diner in some Town of Tonawanda strip plaza rather than buy a Five Guys, Jimmy John's or BD's Mongolian Barbecue franchise.
* NYS law restricting wine sales to liquor stores keep out retail stores that depend on wine sales for a good portion of their revenue; Costco, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods and World Market to name a few. In the NYC area, volume makes up for the lack of revenue from alcohol.
Maybe the difference with Cleveland is that they don't have a grocery store like Wegman's that can compete with the best of them. So, that could be the difference. Even in my area, I've seen Ontario plates at some of the smaller Wegman's here, let alone the fact that the biggest Wegmans is in DeWitt just east of Syracuse.
I wouldn't say Heinen's is a total Wegman's equivalent, but if you look at just the grocery section -- not including organic/natural foods, produce, ready-made meals, meat/deli, bakery,cookware, restaurant and the like -- it was about equal or even a step up. The "Jewish Heinen's" (I'm Jewish, so I can say that! Other Jews call it that too! ) in University Heights was especially nice. Giant Eagle falls into an area in between Wegmans and Tops, although I'm told the "Eggle" stores outside of the Cleveland area are nasty. Dave's was probably like a smaller Tops; maybe a step below. Marc's: ugh. When Tops was still in Cleveland, the stores looked similar to those in Buffalo, but I thought they seemed to have a slightly deeper grocery selection, and they also carried wine and fireworks!
Living in both Cleveland and Buffalo, I'd say Giant Eagle + Heinen's + Whole Foods + Trader Joe's > Wegmans + Tops + Lexington Co-Op, at least for those living in the Heights/Hillcrest/Chagrin Valley suburbs of the East Side.
I'm not familiar with the Giant Eagle stores in Cleveland but those around Pittsburgh are nothing special. To me they fell into the whole Tops, Weiss, Giant, Price Chopper basic grocery store category.
As far as the whole liquor in a grocery store situation NY is far from the only place where you can't buy it there, in fact several states don't even sell beer in a grocery store or if they do its a weaker version than what you can buy at a beer distributor (no alcohol in PA grocery stores & only 3.2% allowed in Colorado, among other places).
As far as the whole liquor in a grocery store situation NY is far from the only place where you can't buy it there, in fact several states don't even sell beer in a grocery store or if they do its a weaker version than what you can buy at a beer distributor (no alcohol in PA grocery stores & only 3.2% allowed in Colorado, among other places).
Trader Joe's isn't in the Denver area, but many of the chains missing from Buffalo (IKEA, Whole Foods, World Market, Costco, Nortdstrom's, Saks Fifth Avenue, etc) are there. The Denver area is extremely affluent, with a large and growing population of young professionals. Whole Foods is a perfect fit for the Denver area population; young, plenty of disposable income, image-conscious, and very fitness/outdoors-oriented. They don't worry about the state's liquor laws, because they make it up with volume, just as in NYC.
Think about this: TJ's has stores in Rochester, Minnesota, Des Moines, and Omaha, but not Buffalo. Whole Foods is in Little Rock, Fort Collins, Albuquerque, and Tulsa. They are not coming to Buffalo. And, yes, there are places where Wegmans, Whole Foods and TJ's all coexist.
WF isn't out of the Buffalo market because they fear competition from Wegmans. They're not there because of the liquor laws, and the very low percentage of educated, somewhat crunchy upper middle class households that would otherwise make a store successful without wine sales. My bet: Rochester (probably Pittsford) and Albany will see a WF in 2014 or 2015, Ithaca and Syracuse shortly afterwards, and maybe Amherst/Williamsville in 2020; maybe a few years earlier if the state relaxes its liquor laws. TJ's wil not be coming to Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse or anyplace upstate, period, until they can sell Three Buck Chuck in their stores.
Would Whole Foods do good in Buffalo? I think so. A 10th location in Denver would do even better, though, so that's where they're going to devote their resources.
Consider how long it took Chipotle to come to Buffalo - long after the chain saturated the rest of the country. Chipotle is considered just one of many restaurants in other cities, while it's a rare novelty in Buffalo. Staples, an office supply chain that is far superior to OfficeMax and Office Depot, is almost everywhere in the country except the Buffalo metro. They've got stores in Fort Erie, St. Catherines, Erie, Elmira, Rochester, Syracuse, Ithaca, Cortland, and Binghamton, but not Buffalo. Buffalo is the end of the line for chains; that is, if they come at all. I see it as an indicator of sorts.
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Originally Posted by garmin239
Buffalo doesn't need national burger chains since the local ones they have are better than what any chain could offer.
Burgers aren't Buffalo's strong suit. There's no truly iconic burger joint in the area, and the eleventy gazillion Greek diners in the area can't serve a decent burger to save their lives; quarter pound patties on plain white supermarket rolls, oh boy. Some bars serve a decent burger, but they operate under the radar, and they're not exactly places where you want to take the family.
Last edited by elmwood; 02-12-2011 at 01:21 AM..
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) in University Heights was especially nice. Giant Eagle falls into an area in between Wegmans and Tops, although I'm told the "Eggle" stores outside of the Cleveland area are nasty. Dave's was probably like a smaller Tops; maybe a step below. Marc's: ugh. When Tops was still in Cleveland, the stores looked similar to those in Buffalo, but I thought they seemed to have a slightly deeper grocery selection, and they also carried wine and fireworks! 
