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Old 03-26-2019, 08:14 AM
 
65,495 posts, read 91,302,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I know all about the Expos. They were in Canada first. I know how the strike basically killed them. It was a depressing day when the Expos left Montreal. I wanted them to stay.

And what you have mentioned about the Mariners and Blue Jays being established at the same time, lead further to another point. The Mariners have only had sporadic success, and it was late in the game. The Blue Jays were a success from day one and started to re-live some of that success in the mid 2010s. I also feel that the "Canada's team" factor can play a role.

I know about Fred McGriff. I remember watching him when he played for the Atlanta Braves. I also watched a clip when Ken Griffey Jr robbed Jesse Barfield of a home run.

The point that I'm talking about it this. The Mariners have a harder time competing because of their history vis a vis the Blue Jays. A team in Buffalo will have it even hard because the Blue Jays got there first. In the Windsor area, the Detroit Tigers got there first and have a history of being a good team. For that reason, there are still Tigers fans in the area. With the Niagara region, Toronto has been the sole representative for MLB for the last four decades. A team in Buffalo will have to work very hard to get fans from the other side of the border. Each area has their own individual issues. With Seattle, it's been a matter of not being a good team for a while. With the Detroit-Windsor region, Detroit had baseball before Toronto, so there has been a chance to have a strong establishment.

For the Niagara region in Ontario, there has been no MLB representation in Buffalo, it was the Expos first, then the Blue Jays. With the Blue Jays being Canada's only team, it is the team of choice for that region. If Buffalo is to win over any fans across the border, it will have to fight with the Blue Jays, a team with history(and a history of success). Buffalo would also fall under what is known as "small market" status. It would have to work twice as hard.
Yes, it would be more on par with say Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, KC, Cincinnati, Cleveland or Milwaukee. I say that because while the metro area is only about 1.1-1.2 million people, it would get enough from the Niagara Region of Ontario and from adjacent counties to where the population goes up to around 2 million when adding those areas. As it has been mentioned before on the forum, Buffalo is the 2nd smallest 1 million person metro area in terms of land size in the country(only 1566 square miles) only behind the Hartford CT metro area(only 1515 square miles). So, people may look at just the metro, but this is an example of how the metro area can be viewed as being arbitrary due to commuting criteria not necessarily coming into play.

I also think what may have possibly helped Buffalo is if they got a team, it would have likely been in the National League, while Toronto is in the American League. Remember, the teams that got the bid were the Colorado Rockies and Florida(now Miami) Marlins, which are both in the National League. So, it would have had different teams coming through that Toronto wouldn't usually get.

You would have likely had a rivalry with Pittsburgh as well. So, those games could have brought in more people from say the Southern Tier of NY/Northern Tier of PA at least occasionally as well.

Again, this is just some ways as to why it could have worked versus saying that it would have definitely worked.
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Yes, it would be more on par with say Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, KC, Cincinnati, Cleveland or Milwaukee. I say that because while the metro area is only about 1.1-1.2 million people, it would get enough from the Niagara Region of Ontario and from adjacent counties to where the population goes up to around 2 million when adding those areas. As it has been mentioned before on the forum, Buffalo is the 2nd smallest 1 million person metro area in terms of land size in the country(only 1566 square miles) only behind the Hartford CT metro area(only 1515 square miles). So, people may look at just the metro, but this is an example of how the metro area can be viewed as being arbitrary due to commuting criteria not necessarily coming into play.

I also think what may have possibly helped Buffalo is if they got a team, it would have likely been in the National League, while Toronto is in the American League. Remember, the teams that got the bid were the Colorado Rockies and Florida(now Miami) Marlins, which are both in the National League. So, it would have had different teams coming through that Toronto wouldn't usually get.

You would have likely had a rivalry with Pittsburgh as well. So, those games could have brought in more people from say the Southern Tier of NY/Northern Tier of PA at least occasionally as well.

Again, this is just some ways as to why it could have worked versus saying that it would have definitely worked.
It depends. While there could be some fans of a Buffalo-based team, there is still the factor of the Blue Jays. The Blue Jays factor cannot be ruled out.

There is another source where a Buffalo-based MLB team could get more fans: The Rochester area. This is to be considered. Buffalo is a 76 minute drive from Rochester. There is also a train that runs from Buffalo to Rochester. That's about 1 million more people right there. The whole of Western New York has 2.6 million people.

Fans could also come as far away from Syracuse. It's about 2.5 hours from Buffalo to Syracuse. St. Louis Cardinals fans sometimes drive from as far away as Jefferson City (about the same distance as Syracuse to Buffalo).

If Buffalo was in the National League, that could draw fans from Ontario's Niagara region. But it would have to be in the National League. Otherwise, there will be alot of competition. But there might still be interleague games.

One of the biggest hurdles for Buffalo will be economics. Cleveland is already hurting. Despite being a good team, Cleveland Indians games are not well-attended. Some people can't afford to go to the games. Cheaper minor league teams are nearby. If a team goes to Buffalo, consideration would need to be taken in terms of who could and couldn't afford to attend the games.

I want to mention Tampa Bay. The Tampa Bay Rays biggest problem isn't being "small market". The region is home to almost 3.1 million people. A bad stadium in a far off part of the area is the problem. Tropicana Field is a small stadium that was basically outdated when the Rays started playing there, in 1998. It's also located in St. Petersburg, with is quite far from the rest of the Tampa Bay region's population, not to mention having to cross a bridge to get there. Furthermore, many elderly residents (this being Florida) are on fixed incomes, and many people can't drive to the games (public transportation in the region is mediocre).

Last edited by green_mariner; 03-26-2019 at 11:58 AM..
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Old 03-26-2019, 01:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
So, people may look at just the metro, but this is an example of how the metro area can be viewed as being arbitrary due to commuting criteria not necessarily coming into play.

.


I may be wrong, but I thought that the commuting data and economic ties ARE what determines a metro area. For example, Yates County just joined the Rochester Metro
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Old 03-26-2019, 01:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post

There is another source where a Buffalo-based MLB team could get more fans: The Rochester area. This is to be considered. Buffalo is a 76 minute drive from Rochester. There is also a train that runs from Buffalo to Rochester. That's about 1 million more people right there. The whole of Western New York has 2.6 million people.

.

The Buffalo metro population is 1,134,000
The Rochester metro population is 1,084,000


Genesee county about 52,000
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Old 03-26-2019, 01:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWRocks View Post
I may be wrong, but I thought that the commuting data and economic ties ARE what determines a metro area. For example, Yates County just joined the Rochester Metro
I'm saying something different. My point is that in regards to something like this, the metro area criteria does not necessarily define the "market" of the team. This is especially the case with a city/area like Buffalo, where a portion of the "market" spills over into another country/area that cannot be qualified through US Census metro area criteria.

Also, in terms of WNY, can't forget Chautauqua and Cattaraugus County, with the latter being in the Buffalo Combined Statistical Area. Some of this depends on what counties you include, like this wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_New_York

or this entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Niagara_Region

or this entry on the Canadian side: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niagara_Peninsula

@green_mariner, the only concern I would have with the other NY areas is that Rochester and Syracuse have their own AAA Baseball teams and places like Auburn and Batavia in between also have A Baseball teams in the NY-Penn League. What could have happened is that Buffalo's AAA team could have been Rochester, with Syracuse at the time staying with Toronto(now with the NY Mets). Same could have applied with the single A teams, Jamestown and I believe Niagara Falls still had NY-Penn teams at the time as well. Anyway, I think you could still get people from those areas to attend at times, though.
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Old 03-26-2019, 03:03 PM
 
Location: PVB
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I think ML Baseball has the same problem as NBA and other pro sports without a hard salary cap. Teams with wealthy motivated owners in baseball hotbeds with large populations (NY Yankees, Boston Red Sox, LA Dodgers, SF Giants, for example) have a HUGE advantage over small market teams. The NFL is smart and everyone has the same chance with their hard cap. Baseball attendance has been declining for years.
Lets say someone wants to put a team in Buffalo. Unless its Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos, who wouldn't care as much about losing money. There is little hope to dethrone the Yankees, Red Sox with their built-in advantages, like lots more people, media contracts in the multi millions per year, so what would be the point?

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/estimate...-30-mlb-teams/
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Old 03-26-2019, 04:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundarr457 View Post
I think ML Baseball has the same problem as NBA and other pro sports without a hard salary cap. Teams with wealthy motivated owners in baseball hotbeds with large populations (NY Yankees, Boston Red Sox, LA Dodgers, SF Giants, for example) have a HUGE advantage over small market teams. The NFL is smart and everyone has the same chance with their hard cap. Baseball attendance has been declining for years.
Lets say someone wants to put a team in Buffalo. Unless its Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos, who wouldn't care as much about losing money. There is little hope to dethrone the Yankees, Red Sox with their built-in advantages, like lots more people, media contracts in the multi millions per year, so what would be the point?

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/estimate...-30-mlb-teams/
In short, MLB would have to put in a salary cap for a team in Buffalo to really do well.

And let's address the declining attendance. One thing that is concerning regarding the Buffalo area is the declining population. Declining atttendance would get aggravated by declining population. The Cleveland Indians are already grappling with that issue.
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Old 03-26-2019, 04:50 PM
 
Location: PVB
4,567 posts, read 2,487,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
In short, MLB would have to put in a salary cap for a team in Buffalo to really do well.

And let's address the declining attendance. One thing that is concerning regarding the Buffalo area is the declining population. Declining atttendance would get aggravated by declining population. The Cleveland Indians are already grappling with that issue.
That is my point exactly. What do you think would happen to the Bills if the NFL salary cap was lifted? There would be no hope against big monied teams like the Pats, Jets, Raiders, Chargers and Texans in the AFC or Giants, Rams, Eagles, Bears, 49ers, Falcons and Redskins in the NFC. We would get outbid in free agency and no one would want to play here for less money. The NFL has it down right and MLB, NHL and NBA are in a different league. The good players go wherever they want and no one can do anything about it. If you live in one of those big markets its nirvana, if you live in a small market, oh well, maybe next year.
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Old 03-27-2019, 07:50 AM
 
65,495 posts, read 91,302,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
In short, MLB would have to put in a salary cap for a team in Buffalo to really do well.

And let's address the declining attendance. One thing that is concerning regarding the Buffalo area is the declining population. Declining attendance would get aggravated by declining population. The Cleveland Indians are already grappling with that issue.
The difference between Cleveland and Buffalo though goes back to the Canadian population. That area of Ontario is within it most affluent region of its country. So, again, this is where the metro population of Buffalo isn't necessarily the be all, end all in terms "market". Again, this isn't saying that Buffalo would do well, but you also have to consider other factors that are unique to each area.

Another factor that hasn't been discussed is that given that MLB is a Spring to Fall league, the tourism factor could also help attendance. Meaning, you have people that visit Niagara Falls more so during that time of year and in turn, brings in more people to the area. So, that could also be another aspect to this that may get overlooked in terms of potential attendance.
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:44 AM
 
Location: PVB
4,567 posts, read 2,487,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
The difference between Cleveland and Buffalo though goes back to the Canadian population. That area of Ontario is within it most affluent region of its country. So, again, this is where the metro population of Buffalo isn't necessarily the be all, end all in terms "market". Again, this isn't saying that Buffalo would do well, but you also have to consider other factors that are unique to each area.

Another factor that hasn't been discussed is that given that MLB is a Spring to Fall league, the tourism factor could also help attendance. Meaning, you have people that visit Niagara Falls more so during that time of year and in turn, brings in more people to the area. So, that could also be another aspect to this that may get overlooked in terms of potential attendance.
I assume you are referring the "Golden Horseshoe". If Toronto didn't have its own team in a downtown covered stadium then I could see your point. Why on earth would anyone drive 2 hours to Buffalo to watch a game in an uncovered stadium.
As far as economy goes, Cleveland is light years ahead of Buffalo. When I was in Cleveland for my hernia surgery at the world class Cleveland Clinic, with its 35,000 high paying non-government supported jobs. It has a 12 Billion dollar endowment from donations instead of depending on state handouts. I was very impressed with the historic housing which its far superior to Buffalo. The waterfront is much nicer plus there is the Rock and Roll HOF. Besides being rustbelt lakefront cities there is little else in common. I suggest you take a ride there and you will be impressed.
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