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gonetoelpaso, there was another thread where someone mentioned that in S Buffalo the sign of the cloverleaf was supposed to be a warning to blacks to stay away.
I've never heard that, maybe it just means its Irish owned?
Isn't Cleveland Hill an area of Cheektowaga that is pretty mixed, but is a stable lower middle to middle class area? I know that the stats for that district are solid academically, if I'm not mistaken. Same with parts of Amherst in the Sweet Home and Amherst SD's. Even parts of districts like Maryvale, Kenmore-Tonawanda and Williamsville to a smaller, but noticeable degree.
Isn't Cleveland Hill an area of Cheektowaga that is pretty mixed, but is a stable lower middle to middle class area? I know that the stats for that district are solid academically, if I'm not mistaken. Same with parts of Amherst in the Sweet Home and Amherst SD's. Even parts of districts like Maryvale, Kenmore-Tonawanda and Williamsville to a smaller, but noticeable degree.
Cleveland Hill does seem more comfortablely integrated and solidly working- middle class while Pine Hill seems to be the area that is experiencing spillover problems from the East side.
Don't let those people with the small minded ignorant attitudes bother you so much.
A lot of it stems from the fact that they haven't spent much time outside of Western New York and haven't had much exposure to African-Americans outside of those who live in the eastside of Buffalo, which tend to be very poor compared to African Americans in other parts of the country. In fact I was shocked when I first came to Long Island and encountered large number of middle class African-Americans (infact I would say that the majority of AA's fall into that category here). People only know what they see and if you only see a certain element of a population you are going to have a narrow view of that group.
Don't worry so much about what some 70 year old guy in Cheektowaga wearing a wife-beater tee-shirt thinks about blacks moving in. Someone like that isn't going to appreciate or understand why someone would want to live in a nice city neighborhood with historic architecture and they never will. You don't have to live in their world and anything you say certainly isn't going to change their opinion. Live and let live.
In all fairness though I have to say that that you may not understand why some people may legitimately want to live in a quiet suburban neighborhood with good schools and a simple to care for vinyl sided house. It may seem tacky to you, but when you get older and have children your priorities change. Being able to walk to a cafe or nice restaurant isn't as important as having a nice yard for your kids to play in or schools that may offer programs your child needs.
Also, not all suburbanites are racists, I think you would be very surprised how diverse many suburban communities are getting across the country; the school district I live in Long Island is 31% minority, yet less than 7% of students qualify for a free lunch. High Minority population doesn't have to equal high poverty or a bad school district. Unfortunately in Western New York this is often not the case and thus a partial reason why suburbanites may hold these outdated attitudes. Don't worry though, this will change in WNY too, it's just happening at a slower rate than other areas because WNY doesn't get the huge number of immigrants that is rapidly diversifying other areas across the country.
My advice is to just focus on making Buffalo a better place to live and don't worry so much about what Stan Stabluski out in Lancaster thinks about it. Many small groups have done a good job preserving Elmwood Village and parts of North Buffalo and as a result those areas are beautiful and stable. If Buffalo continues to improve maybe Stan's kids or grandkids will want to settle in the City of Buffalo.
Should I keep my son out of pizzerias showing the sign of the cloverleaf?
I'm a Buffalo native, but I don't know about this practice. When I lived in Central Florida for a while, some locally owned businesses in the more redneck suburbs (Winter Garden, Apopka, etc) put Confederate flag stickers on their front door; it was code for "blacks not welcome." Do cloverleafs mean the same thing in Buffalo?
A lot of it stems from the fact that they haven't spent much time outside of Western New York and haven't had much exposure to African-Americans outside of those who live in the eastside of Buffalo, which tend to be very poor compared to African Americans in other parts of the country. In fact I was shocked when I first came to Long Island and encountered large number of middle class African-Americans (infact I would say that the majority of AA's fall into that category here). People only know what they see and if you only see a certain element of a population you are going to have a narrow view of that group.
Excellent post.
On a related note, the Cleveland area has several middle-class to upper-income suburbs that have been racially integrated and stable for decades; Shaker Heights, Cleveland Heights, University Heights and South Euclid among them. Many white people seek out homes in these suburbs, because they want to live in a diverse community, yet like most people, want to feel secure that they're not going to resegregate.
However, the attempts made by more lower-middle class and working class suburbs to achieve stable racial integration have been a failure; for example, Warrensville Heights and Bedford Heights. Garfield Heights is a near-clone of Cheektowaga; very blue-collar, working-class to lower-middle class, once predominantly Polish/Eastern European, developed mostly through the 1950s. They just started experiencing an influx of black residents about 15 years ago, and local officials are scared, knowing that resegregation is inevitable given the experiences of their peer communities. Maple Heights is in the same boat.
Take a look at the neighborhoods in the Buffalo area that have had the most success with integration. They tend to be middle class and higher income areas; Parkside, Snyder, Eggertsville. Cheektowaga only has a few neighborhoods that can be considered middle-class and better off; much of Cleveland Hill, the "French Cities", Countryside Lane, and that's about it. Otherwise, it's small ranch houses and Cape Cods, built for the factory workers of the 1950s. Remember, Cheektowaga didn't develop in a vacuum; it was essentially an extension of the then-working class East Side, just as Amherst was an extension of eastern North Buffalo and Parkside, Tonawanda an extension of western North Buffalo and Riverside, and West Seneca an extension of South Buffalo. Just as the East Side, Cheektowaga had Italian and German enclaves; there are still many Italians in South Cheektowaga, while the Germans today are more scattered about.
What is this nonsense about a cloverleaf being a racist symbol? South Buffalo is an IRISH neighborhood and the cloverleaf has been an Irish symbol for centuries so of course there are going to be cloverleafs everywhere. Legend has it that St. Patrick used the cloverleaf to teach the Irish (then pagans) about the Holy Trinity.
It sounds like someone was just trying to make South Buffalo seem more racist.
Don't let those people with the small minded ignorant attitudes bother you so much.
A lot of it stems from the fact that they haven't spent much time outside of Western New York and haven't had much exposure to African-Americans outside of those who live in the eastside of Buffalo, which tend to be very poor compared to African Americans in other parts of the country. In fact I was shocked when I first came to Long Island and encountered large number of middle class African-Americans (infact I would say that the majority of AA's fall into that category here). People only know what they see and if you only see a certain element of a population you are going to have a narrow view of that group.
Don't worry so much about what some 70 year old guy in Cheektowaga wearing a wife-beater tee-shirt thinks about blacks moving in. Someone like that isn't going to appreciate or understand why someone would want to live in a nice city neighborhood with historic architecture and they never will. You don't have to live in their world and anything you say certainly isn't going to change their opinion. Live and let live.
In all fairness though I have to say that that you may not understand why some people may legitimately want to live in a quiet suburban neighborhood with good schools and a simple to care for vinyl sided house. It may seem tacky to you, but when you get older and have children your priorities change. Being able to walk to a cafe or nice restaurant isn't as important as having a nice yard for your kids to play in or schools that may offer programs your child needs.
Also, not all suburbanites are racists, I think you would be very surprised how diverse many suburban communities are getting across the country; the school district I live in Long Island is 31% minority, yet less than 7% of students qualify for a free lunch. High Minority population doesn't have to equal high poverty or a bad school district. Unfortunately in Western New York this is often not the case and thus a partial reason why suburbanites may hold these outdated attitudes. Don't worry though, this will change in WNY too, it's just happening at a slower rate than other areas because WNY doesn't get the huge number of immigrants that is rapidly diversifying other areas across the country.
My advice is to just focus on making Buffalo a better place to live and don't worry so much about what Stan Stabluski out in Lancaster thinks about it. Many small groups have done a good job preserving Elmwood Village and parts of North Buffalo and as a result those areas are beautiful and stable. If Buffalo continues to improve maybe Stan's kids or grandkids will want to settle in the City of Buffalo.
Really solid advice Port North.
I just come off as angry because I've been frustrated with all of these things for years and now I have a place to vent.
I really do understand why people would like to live on a quiet street with a vinyl sided house and a front lawn. I just think that there are still a lot of places in the city where that dream can be had. We don't need to be building houses in Clarence Center and Marilla when we have urban prairies everywhere in the city.
I am quite young and I'm wondering how you picked up on that. However, I don't see restaurants and trendy hangouts as the only thing that makes a good neighborhood, I see them as a great start. Also, there are many areas that a family can be raised with plenty of culture. As far as schooling goes, it's still cheaper to buy a modest house in an underrated area of Buffalo and send your kids to private school then it is to buy a ridiculous house in Amherst and pay the high taxes. When I do have kids I plan on trying to get them into a good city school like Olmstead and then City Honors or Hutch Tech. If they can't get in I'll either crack the whip until their smarter (I'm kidding) or send them to private school.
I just come off as angry because I've been frustrated with all of these things for years and now I have a place to vent.
I really do understand why people would like to live on a quiet street with a vinyl sided house and a front lawn. I just think that there are still a lot of places in the city where that dream can be had. We don't need to be building houses in Clarence Center and Marilla when we have urban prairies everywhere in the city.
I am quite young and I'm wondering how you picked up on that. However, I don't see restaurants and trendy hangouts as the only thing that makes a good neighborhood, I see them as a great start. Also, there are many areas that a family can be raised with plenty of culture. As far as schooling goes, it's still cheaper to buy a modest house in an underrated area of Buffalo and send your kids to private school then it is to buy a ridiculous house in Amherst and pay the high taxes. When I do have kids I plan on trying to get them into a good city school like Olmstead and then City Honors or Hutch Tech. If they can't get in I'll either crack the whip until their smarter (I'm kidding) or send them to private school.
I know you are young because I used to think the same way many years ago when I lived in WNY
What you say about City living being more affordable is true in Buffalo, but that isn't the case everywhere. I couldn't afford to live in most of the nice areas of NYC even if I wanted to. What is happening there is that the rich are taking over the transit-friendly "walkable neighborhoods" and the middle class are either being forced out into the suburbs and exurbs, or out of the region entirely. As a result you are getting the suburbanization of poverty (particularly in outer ring suburbs/exurbs in Suffolk County, Orange County, Dutchess County and the Poconos) and the city is increasingly becoming the home of the elite (with the poor only living in legacy public housing).
I think it will be a slightly different dynamic in Buffalo where most of the poverty will eventually settle in the first ring suburbs and both the City (eventually) and the exurbs/outer suburbs will be in good shape. However, people revitalizing the city won't eliminate poverty, it just will shift it out of the city.
Also keep in mind that most private schools tend to only want kids without any significant "issues". The ever broadening "autistic spectrum" may envelop your children too and you may be forced to live in a wealthy district like Williamsville in order for them to pay for the services your child needs. Maybe Buffalo could become a great district that can adequately serve the needs of all students, however as of right now if your kid doesn't get into Olmstead or one of the Charter schools they are SOL!
Anyways, I don't want to put a damper on your youthful idealism. I think that wanting to support the city and eventually planning to have a family there is great! Buffalo needs more people like you. Just focus on making Buffalo a carrot that will draw more people into it, the stick won't work with stubburn WNY'ers.
I know you are young because I used to think the same way many years ago when I lived in WNY
What you say about City living being more affordable is true in Buffalo, but that isn't the case everywhere. I couldn't afford to live in most of the nice areas of NYC even if I wanted to. What is happening there is that the rich are taking over the transit-friendly "walkable neighborhoods" and the middle class are either being forced out into the suburbs and exurbs, or out of the region entirely. As a result you are getting the suburbanization of poverty (particularly in outer ring suburbs/exurbs in Suffolk County, Orange County, Dutchess County and the Poconos) and the city is increasingly becoming the home of the elite (with the poor only living in legacy public housing).
I think it will be a slightly different dynamic in Buffalo where most of the poverty will eventually settle in the first ring suburbs and both the City (eventually) and the exurbs/outer suburbs will be in good shape. However, people revitalizing the city won't eliminate poverty, it just will shift it out of the city.
Also keep in mind that most private schools tend to only want kids without any significant "issues". The ever broadening "autistic spectrum" may envelop your children too and you may be forced to live in a wealthy district like Williamsville in order for them to pay for the services your child needs. Maybe Buffalo could become a great district that can adequately serve the needs of all students, however as of right now if your kid doesn't get into Olmstead or one of the Charter schools they are SOL!
Anyways, I don't want to put a damper on your youthful idealism. I think that wanting to support the city and eventually planning to have a family there is great! Buffalo needs more people like you. Just focus on making Buffalo a carrot that will draw more people into it, the stick won't work with stubburn WNY'ers.
Interesting how it's so much different in NYC. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of that happening in places like Chicago or Philly either. I have to admit, a few years back when I heard of wealthy people wanting to live in a downtown area it confused me because of my experience with what Buffalo is like. Now I completely understand because I've seen it with my own two eyes in the adorementioned cities. Boston too. I think you're right about what Buffalo is going to look like in a few years, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I can definitely understand the autism issue. I wholeheartedly hope that is something I won't have to face but I know it's becoming an epidemic these days. I wonder if there are any prenatal tests available to check for it. I'm under the impression that a lot of parochial schools are dying for kids that might have "issues" though. I figured that if I came in with cash in hand, that they would take my kids regardless. Obviously this wouldn't be the case if my child was severely mentally or physically disabled.
Again, real words of wisdom Port North. Thanks.
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