The Forgotten City (New York, Buffalo, Boston: taxes, to live in, move to)

[ckhthankgod]

Here's another side to the Black community here in the Buffalo area:Uncrowned Kings

[Urban Peasant]

Originally Posted by CleanCutHippie

I think that is one of the cities that will never make a comeback. Here are a few reasons why...

1.) The weather is absolutely dreadful.

2.) It really does not have any drawing power. Why would anyone go to Buffalo? It has nothing to make ppl stay or go there.

3.) The huge north to south migration

1 Buffalo's weather has always been the same for centuries or even eons - cold snowy winters and mild sunny summers. Weather alone does not determine the economic success of a city. Did you really think that the weather was any better back in 1908 when Buffalo was a prosperous city?

2 You may have a point here for the moment as Buffalo obviously lost its industrial base. Still, Buffalo is close to Niagara Falls and Toronto which are magnet places for people. Also, Buffalo does have cheap housing. Once sales and property taxes are lowered (and I truly believe someone will do it one day), businesses will want to come in to Buffalo.

3 This is because all the jobs right now are down south and not up in the north. Watch it, once the cost of living gets too expensive in Charlotte, Houston, and Miami due to sprawl and pollution, and Phoenix and Las Vegas dry up, there will be a hugh south to north migration.

[MarineFromBuffalo]

Originally Posted by Urban Peasant

1 Buffalo's weather has always been the same for centuries or even eons - cold snowy winters and mild sunny summers. Weather alone does not determine the economic success of a city. Did you really think that the weather was any better back in 1908 when Buffalo was a prosperous city?

2 You may have a point here for the moment as Buffalo obviously lost its industrial base. Still, Buffalo is close to Niagara Falls and Toronto which are magnet places for people. Also, Buffalo does have cheap housing. Once sales and property taxes are lowered (and I truly believe someone will do it one day), businesses will want to come in to Buffalo.

3 This is because all the jobs right now are down south and not up in the north. Watch it, once the cost of living gets too expensive in Charlotte, Houston, and Miami due to sprawl and pollution, and Phoenix and Las Vegas dry up, there will be a hugh south to north migration.

Exactly, everyone who thinks Buffalo's weather needs to read my thread about Buffalo's weather
I am not sure if people know about all the tax breaks Buffalo and Eric county give. I am a Veterian of OIF, OEF and because of that I get anywere from 10%-25% off my property taxes, not to mention the STAR program. But, yes taxes in Buffalo are keeping businesses out. They want to make money and the more money they have to pay out for taxes the less likely they are going to stay.

[ocean2026]

Urban you're missing the point( and Marine always misses it) by arguing with Clean Cut. True in 1908 Buffalo still had cold weather and it grew anyway !

The difference between then and now should be obvious but obviously it isnt to you guys.

In 1908 having manufacturing on the great lakes was crucial - now its irrelevant!

In 1908 the American worker didn't have the resources and mobility to move to Tucson, San Diego Phoenix and Dallas. Those were "wild west " places and not attractive for families to live -even if they could move all their stuff.

Even in the 1950's when I was growing up in NY - people would ask "Are those places friendly to Jews (substitute your ethnicity)" They were like strange far off places . Now with real retirement plans people have the money to move.

Marine can make all the threads about his opinion on the weather but he can't change the facts.

Which of these rust belt cold weather cities are gaining or have gained population over the past 40 years?

Cleveland - Youngstown - Detroit- Pittsburgh Wheeling Toledo- Rochester maybe Chicago as its the mecca of the midwest but if its gained its been minute.

Dream all you want but its not happening.

Now which of these cities has a higher percentage of nice older architectural marvels than Buffalo at lower prices?

I would say only Detroit is close ( definitely cheaper) but overall Buffalo WINS

Think OUTSIDE the box and capitalize on this!

[Urban Peasant]

Originally Posted by ocean2026

In 1908 having manufacturing on the great lakes was crucial - now its irrelevant!

Now which of these cities has a higher percentage of nice older architectural marvels than Buffalo at lower prices?

I would say only Detroit is close ( definitely cheaper) but overall Buffalo WINS

I admit, I too like older architecture and I too would not like to see architectural gems destroyed to make way for ugly modern edifices. It had happened over and over again here in Boston and as a result, some Boston neighborhoods lost character. Luckily the city is now making great efforts to preserve historic buildings and neighborhoods. I think Buffalo too would greatly benefit from preserving and/or restoring some old buildings and then showing them off for outside people to see.

That said though, I still think you are overly pessimistic about Buffalo. You said it yourself, manufacturing is now irrelevant in Buffalo. It will not return in droves and so Buffalo must look for something else. Boston was once a great manufacturing center as well but we lost more than half of our manufacturing industry. No one pays attention to manufacturing in Boston nowadays because it IS long gone, people now look to the biotech, information tech, and healthcare industries. Who would ever have thought that Boston would revive itself through these industries after decades of decline?

I also get the feeling that your argument stands on native Buffalonians choosing whether to stay or not. True enough, many old time Buffalonians did leave Buffalo just as many old time Bostonians left Boston. The difference is that Boston has found ways to attract new (and young) people to the city and that is something that Buffalo needs to do or keep doing. Old architecture is nice but it is not enough to attract young people and new businesses to the city. What Buffalo needs are new industries, new jobs, and new ways of living for young people. Unless a person grew up in a city, it is hard for that person to care about the city before caring about him/herself, getting a job, and making ends meet.

[Urban Peasant]

By the way, I watched the first two segments of that documentary on youtube. The problems of Buffalo's East Side are not at all endemic to Buffalo. I currently teach in an inner city school in Boston and my students, who are predominantly Black and Latino, witness just the same things (shootings, muggings, etc) and feel just the same way (fear, despair, etc).

The East Side's problems have less to do with Buffalo's decline than inner city despair in any major US city. This is what happens when there are little opportunities for certain people who are then stuck in one place with nowhere else to go. They find their own ways of living and won't listen to anyone who tries to tell them their way of living is wrong until it is too late. It is a sin committed by many cities in America.

[livecontent]

Originally Posted by Urban Peasant

1 Buffalo's weather has always been the same for centuries or even eons - cold snowy winters and mild sunny summers. Weather alone does not determine the economic success of a city. Did you really think that the weather was any better back in 1908 when Buffalo was a prosperous city?...

Yes, Buffalo weather was the same in 1908 and today and the weather in other warmer parts of the country was also the same yesterday and today. That is one point you are missing is that these other, less prosperous parts of the country, were very hot and humid. Buffalo, at that time, was a better and healthier place to live. This all changed with the invention of air conditioning and more businesses and people where able to survive in these hot, humid, hostile states; so began the movement of population. The Northeast had now other competitive parts of the country that were appealing places to live.

You will be surprised to know that air conditioning is credited to the patents and innovations of Willis Carrier. He was born in Angola, NY and after graduating from Cornell, he went to work at the Buffalo Forge and as a mechanical engineer, he invented air conditioning. His patent of 1906 for a chilled coil system which reduced temperature and humidity, was the seminal invention of air conditioning. His company, The Carrier Corp., was at one time the largest employer in Central Upstate New York and is located in Syracuse.

So one of the causes of the population movement away from Buffalo was done by a innovative engineer in Buffalo. We all know that many areas in the South, Southwest and West, that have attracted so many people and industries, would not be "livable" and attractive without air conditioning.

And that is the rest of the story...

Livecontent

[Buffalonian4life]

Originally Posted by livecontent

Yes, Buffalo weather was the same in 1908 and today and the weather in other warmer parts of the country was also the same yesterday and today. That is one point you are missing is that these other, less prosperous parts of the country, were very hot and humid. Buffalo, at that time, was a better and healthier place to live. This all changed with the invention of air conditioning and more businesses and people where able to survive in these hot, humid, hostile states; so began the movement of population. The Northeast had now other competitive parts of the country that were appealing places to live.

You will be surprised to know that air conditioning is credited to the patents and innovations of Willis Carrier. He was born in Angola, NY and after graduating from Cornell, he went to work at the Buffalo Forge and as a mechanical engineer, he invented air conditioning. His patent of 1906 for a chilled coil system which reduced temperature and humidity, was the seminal invention of air conditioning. His company, The Carrier Corp., was at one time the largest employer in Central Upstate New York and is located in Syracuse.

So one of the causes of the population movement away from Buffalo was done by a innovative engineer in Buffalo. We all know that many areas in the South, Southwest and West, that have attracted so many people and industries, would not be "livable" and attractive without air conditioning.

And that is the rest of the story...

Livecontent

Hmm... very interesting post, Livecontent!

[HeadedWest]

Originally Posted by Urban Peasant

What Buffalo needs are new industries, new jobs, and new ways of living for young people.

That's true, but it's not exactly news. People have said things like this for the past 40 or more years, but nobody has solved it yet.

Buffalo, in addition to a harsh winter climate, is a high tax and high cost place to do business. You can't defeat that combination easily.

Boston was mentioned. It has the advantage of being the northern end of the eastern megalopolis stretching down to NYC, Philadelphia, and DC. There is easy movement by rail and air all along that corridor. Buffalo only has Toronto, and the border crossing is a barrier to travel.

[MarineFromBuffalo]

Originally Posted by ocean2026

Urban you're missing the point( and Marine always misses it) by arguing with Clean Cut. True in 1908 Buffalo still had cold weather and it grew anyway !

The difference between then and now should be obvious but obviously it isnt to you guys.

In 1908 having manufacturing on the great lakes was crucial - now its irrelevant!

In 1908 the American worker didn't have the resources and mobility to move to Tucson, San Diego Phoenix and Dallas. Those were "wild west " places and not attractive for families to live -even if they could move all their stuff.

Even in the 1950's when I was growing up in NY - people would ask "Are those places friendly to Jews (substitute your ethnicity)" They were like strange far off places . Now with real retirement plans people have the money to move.

Marine can make all the threads about his opinion on the weather but he can't change the facts.

Which of these rust belt cold weather cities are gaining or have gained population over the past 40 years?

Cleveland - Youngstown - Detroit- Pittsburgh Wheeling Toledo- Rochester maybe Chicago as its the mecca of the midwest but if its gained its been minute.

Dream all you want but its not happening.

Now which of these cities has a higher percentage of nice older architectural marvels than Buffalo at lower prices?

I would say only Detroit is close ( definitely cheaper) but overall Buffalo WINS

Think OUTSIDE the box and capitalize on this!

Who are you to call me out like that? Because I am young? Because I don't agree with YOUR opinion? I don't care about Buffalo's population. I dont care if it stays where it is. I enjoy not being in grid lock when I get off of work. I am glad Buffalo doesn't have 'fake' people.
Buffalo is finally taking the steps to grow and face it the American public will go where they have job security. Buffalo will be back as well as other Northeastern cities. The south is going to get too expensive for the average American. And don't tell me I am wrong because everything has its ups and downs. The citizens living in Califorinia live there even though there is wildfires, mudslides, and earthquakes, why? Because that is where there are jobs.
Buffalo's downward slide has nothing to do with it's weather, and no one here can predict the future so you can't say Buffalo and other Northeastern cities won't come back. If you went back in time before the civil war and told a southern man that blacks would be living free and have the same rights as them in the near future they would laugh at you.