What will Buffalo's population be in 2015? (Union, Lackawanna: section 8, sales, health insurance)

[ocean2026]

Hey guess what ? Maybe Buffalo doesn't have to kill itself to try for growth. If no new builidings are built - unless they conform with their historic neighborhoods and all the old ones are preserved Buffalo could be the most special historic looking place in the US! Buffalo has little traffic and it could have a special appeal. There is room for growth as many buildings are under-utilized.

This outside the box thinking won't go well with those who see Buffalo's losses as their own. The City of Buffalo has lost population every year since its peak of 1946 and every year people said "we need to think of ways to grow". Its not happening so bank on your great qualities.

Detroit ( and I recently had a thread Buffalo & Detroit differences etc) could also do this however its too far gone and too decayed. This gives Buffalo an excellent opportunity.

[Canerican]

Well, I think you are talking more about an end, not a means to an end at all. Just saying "look historical" won't make business owners overlook the onerous taxes.

[Jonnno]

The continuing poulation decline in Buffalo and WNY is inevitable based solely on demographics alone. So much of our young adult child bearing population has left that deaths will outpace births in the years to come and simple math will prevail. Those of us over the age of 50 have had a front row seat as the major industries that made Buffalo great and drew people to the area have been dismantled piece by piece. First the flour mills, then the steel mills, then the railraoads and now the auto industry. For the most part, the new age jobs have passed us by, so without jobs, no one is going to come here and without in migration to WNY from other places, including immigrants, there is no way we can grow. The people that left here may long to return but very few of them will be able to justify it based on their job prospects elsewhere. Having said that, it doesn't mean the Buffalo and WNY are bad paces to live, it just means that we have to accept that our future will be as a small to mid size city and metro with many amenities but no longer the "major" city we once were.

[Canerican]

That's it. Buffalo shouldn't be considered a major city anymore. It is just a matter of time until our sports franchises make it official... it's inevitable. Tulsa just built a new arena, there are no hockey teams in the midwest but St. Louis (or Dallas, if you consider it the midwest), there are no football teams in Virginia... There are lots of more suitable markets for our teams, ultimately money will decide where the teams go, not fans. I know that fans equal money, but with the mass southward migration, it's not unreasonable to think that there are more than a few yankees in any Southern city.

[jblake78728]

Originally Posted by Canerican

That's it. Buffalo shouldn't be considered a major city anymore. It is just a matter of time until our sports franchises make it official... it's inevitable. Tulsa just built a new arena, there are no hockey teams in the midwest but St. Louis (or Dallas, if you consider it the midwest), there are no football teams in Virginia... There are lots of more suitable markets for our teams, ultimately money will decide where the teams go, not fans. I know that fans equal money, but with the mass southward migration, it's not unreasonable to think that there are more than a few yankees in any Southern city.

You don't consider Chicago & Minneapolis midwestern cities?

You obviously know nothing about ice hockey if you think the Sabres would do better in Kansas City (which is the only realistic open market in the midwest) or the south. Ask the Atlanta, Nashville or the Florida teams how great it is to run an NHL franchise in the south. Carolina even goes through struggles in attendance & they've been pretty successful on the ice. Yes, there are a lot of Yankees in the south but usually they blow off what ever team the league decides to move into their new home & remain loyal to the team they liked growing up. Phoenix is one of the largest cities in the nation (and is full of east coast & upper midwest transplants) and no one attends Coyotes games.

The Bills may very well move when the team is sold due to lack of corporate support ........ but it will likely be to Toronto, not the south (if Jacksonville doesn't move there first).

Virginia's team is the Redskins. No, they don't play in the state but it is their territory & they will fight the league to the bitter end if they ever tried to move someone into the state.

Tulsa will never get a major league sports franchise, at least not in the foreseeable future. The city itself is comparable to many of the smaller markets in the various leagues but their problem is that the surrounding area lacks when compared to Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo etc. OKC would stand a much better chance at an NHL franchise before Tulsa, their problem is that they are too close to Dallas. There isn't enough interest in the NHL for a team in Dallas & OKC. When you look at Buffalo's population with regards to sports teams you also have to consider Rochester & Southern Ontario. Buffalo itself isn't a very attractive market but when you look at the population from Rochester to Hamilton it paints a much different picture. If an NHL team ever moves to Hamilton then the Sabres might be in trouble but until that happens their franchise is very safe.

[DaeinBuffalo]

Canerican, All I ever see is negative comments. If you don't like how it is here just leave and let us sit here and struggle because despite how you feel Buffalo can and will do better. Trends can change as well as estimates, hense the reason why they are called estimates not facts. So you can bore us all to death with your stats, but please don't sit here and basically bash people who live is buffalo that do love the city.

[KingTony723]

I personally think Canerican is a smart dude. I mean, he does try to shoo off new people coming here, if he didn't do that, I would like him more. He's correct on the reasons why Buffalo fell and is continuing to fall. Dems/Liberals have ran this city for decades, and look what's happened... how about we get some people who want to fix the reason why no one wants to move here, or start business here. LOWER THE TAXES!!! sure returning cars to Main St. is great, but to get businesses back on Main, we need to attract them with tax breaks or something. With all the residential projects happening downtown, it's a good start for a comeback, but we still need the jobs to come back, I say a healthy mix of white collar jobs with blue collar manufacturing jobs would be a great thing. de-unionize the area and it will happen.

PS getting rid of welfare would lower the crime rate, all you crazy lefties with your MSNBC trash think we need to be exactly like Europe. Don't call me a right wing religious nut either, i'm Libertarian, and I don't even watch Fox News or listen to ol' Rush. it's just common sense. No welfare means you work for your money, and not sit on your butt and get everyone else to fit your bill for an ipod or 40 inch tv. maybe there should be a safety net for someone, but it could be a very very far fall for someone to actually get cought in it, and have limits on the benefits.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by KingTony723

I personally think Canerican is a smart dude. I mean, he does try to shoo off new people coming here, if he didn't do that, I would like him more. He's correct on the reasons why Buffalo fell and is continuing to fall. Dems/Liberals have ran this city for decades, and look what's happened... how about we get some people who want to fix the reason why no one wants to move here, or start business here. LOWER THE TAXES!!! sure returning cars to Main St. is great, but to get businesses back on Main, we need to attract them with tax breaks or something. With all the residential projects happening downtown, it's a good start for a comeback, but we still need the jobs to come back, I say a healthy mix of white collar jobs with blue collar manufacturing jobs would be a great thing. de-unionize the area and it will happen.

PS getting rid of welfare would lower the crime rate, all you crazy lefties with your MSNBC trash think we need to be exactly like Europe. Don't call me a right wing religious nut either, i'm Libertarian, and I don't even watch Fox News or listen to ol' Rush. it's just common sense. No welfare means you work for your money, and not sit on your butt and get everyone else to fit your bill for an ipod or 40 inch tv. maybe there should be a safety net for someone, but it could be a very very far fall for someone to actually get cought in it, and have limits on the benefits.

That's a myth, as in order for an economy to not get hyperinflation, you will always have people that are unemployed. They say to not have it go under 6%. Then, you have to think if there wasn't any welfare, some of those people might actually drive the crime rate up, because they might be more apt to rob and steal from people. People on welfare should just find jobs. Then, you have to realize that people that might get some form of assistance still work. Hence, the term the working poor.


Also, maybe we should get rid of the corporate welfare that ends up biting the areas in Upstate in the butt, because companies still end up leaving for cheaper labor overseas in many cases.

Here is some good info. to check out: The welfare state nobody knows ... - Google Books

Anyway, I think Buffalo just needs people that will move when they propose something and to have more creative ideas for job creation and to bring people back. Also, consolidation is something that needs to be looked at in some cases in terms of say, law enforcement, school districts and even small towns that could be dissolved. Canada has been amalgamating communities for a while now and the same can be done in NY State.

[Vex]

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod

That's a myth, as in order for an economy to not get hyperinflation, you will always have people that are unemployed. They say to not have it go under 6%. Then, you have to think if there wasn't any welfare, some of those people might actually drive the crime rate up, because they might be more apt to rob and steal from people. People on welfare should just find jobs. Then, you have to realize that people that might get some form of assistance still work. Hence, the term the working poor.


Also, maybe we should get rid of the corporate welfare that ends up biting the areas in Upstate in the butt, because companies still end up leaving for cheaper labor overseas in many cases.

Here is some good info. to check out: The welfare state nobody knows ... - Google Books

Anyway, I think Buffalo just needs people that will move when they propose something and to have more creative ideas for job creation and to bring people back. Also, consolidation is something that needs to be looked at in some cases in terms of say, law enforcement, school districts and even small towns that could be dissolved. Canada has been amalgamating communities for a while now and the same can be done in NY State.

5% is considered full employment. 5% is attained through seasonal unemployment and temporary unemployment as people are chaning betweeen jobs. It has nothing to do with welfare recipients. There should NEVER be lifelong, or in some cases, generational unemployment.

I find it mind boggling that you would suggest welfare/unemployment benefits are critical to our economy by reducing the threat of inflation. UI wasn't instituted until 1935. How was the US economy able to avoid inflation and survive for the hundreds of years before this? Because the notion that welfare/UI is beneficial to the economy is BS! If you disincentivize people to work it hurts the economy.

I agree that corporate welfare sucks. Unfortunately, without it, Upstate NY would see even more businesses leave, and even fewer come here. Instead of these band-aids though, what we really need is statewide reform to make NY a competitive business environment. That means we need less taxes, less regulation, and to kill the unions. "Creative ideas" aren't enough. NY has the worst business environment in the Union, and that needs to change.

I also agree that we need to consolidate our municipalities. And we really need to reform government jobs! How is it that after 20 years (of cushy work) these workers are allowed to retire, collect 75% of their pay, and receive top notch health care for the rest of their lives? No more! They should contribute to their health care costs and have 401k plans like the rest of us in the private sector. Oh, and how about a system that rewards merit and has some measure of accountability! I'm allowed to dream aren't I?

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by Vex

5% is considered full employment. 5% is attained through seasonal unemployment and temporary unemployment as people are chaning betweeen jobs. It has nothing to do with welfare recipients. There should NEVER be lifelong, or in some cases, generational unemployment.

I find it mind boggling that you would suggest welfare/unemployment benefits are critical to our economy by reducing the threat of inflation. UI wasn't instituted until 1935. How was the US economy able to avoid inflation and survive for the hundreds of years before this? Because the notion that welfare/UI is beneficial to the economy is BS! If you disincentivize people to work it hurts the economy.

I agree that corporate welfare sucks. Unfortunately, without it, Upstate NY would see even more businesses leave, and even fewer come here. Instead of these band-aids though, what we really need is statewide reform to make NY a competitive business environment. That means we need less taxes, less regulation, and to kill the unions. "Creative ideas" aren't enough. NY has the worst business environment in the Union, and that needs to change.

I also agree that we need to consolidate our municipalities. And we really need to reform government jobs! How is it that after 20 years (of cushy work) these workers are allowed to retire, collect 75% of their pay, and receive top notch health care for the rest of their lives? No more! They should contribute to their health care costs and have 401k plans like the rest of us in the private sector. Oh, and how about a system that rewards merit and has some measure of accountability! I'm allowed to dream aren't I?

Never said that there should be "lifelong" welfare. Actually, that's a myth too. Most people are only on it for maybe 3 years or so. So, the "lifelong" thing is more the exception to the rule in terms of welfare. Keep in mind that welfare doesn't necessarily mean poor, not working and just TANF either. I believe the point of the info. was showing that not everyone can just "get a job" and everything will be fine. Even if that was the case, then the economy would be too "hot" and overheat. Here's more on that: Natural rate of unemployment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's more on the welfare makes people not want to work myth(btw-I don't get caught up in political labels): Welfare gives people an incentive to avoid work.

What hurts the business environment in NY is the tax issue, in which NY is ranked 49th in regards to business and taxes. With that said, I think with consolidation, you decrease that tax burden due to taxes by the people going towards less things. Meaning, instead of a police force for many villages in Erie County, why not have just a County Department? Or instead of some school district with less than a 1000 students or a bunch of SD's, why not have a Southtowns School District for the Southern part of Erie County, with the same schools in tact and have the old smaller school district boundaries become zones within that district.

NY State also have some districts that don't have a HS or in some cases are just HS school Districts. Those are school districts that can be consolidated or dissolved into a nearby school district. Some tiny villages could become dissolved into a town, at least in terms of government.