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View Poll Results: Population in 2015
~270,000 18 33.33%
265,000-270,000 4 7.41%
260,000-265,000 4 7.41%
250,000-260,000 7 12.96%
240,000-250,000 2 3.70%
225,000-240,000 19 35.19%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-15-2009, 04:18 PM
Vex
 
125 posts, read 221,208 times
Reputation: 158

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Never said that there should be "lifelong" welfare. Actually, that's a myth too. Most people are only on it for maybe 3 years or so. So, the "lifelong" thing is more the exception to the rule in terms of welfare. Keep in mind that welfare doesn't necessarily mean poor, not working and just TANF either. I believe the point of the info. was showing that not everyone can just "get a job" and everything will be fine. Even if that was the case, then the economy would be too "hot" and overheat. Here's more on that: Natural rate of unemployment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's more on the welfare makes people not want to work myth(btw-I don't get caught up in political labels): Welfare gives people an incentive to avoid work.
Dude. You're quoting info from the "Liberalism Resurgent." I don't think you can get any more bias than that, not to mention the latest data is from circa 1992...

Welfare disincentives work. If you don't work you get food stamps, section 8 housing, Medicaid, NFTA tokens, and some welfare money for spending. So for doing nothing you get food, housing, transportation, health care and a lil something on the side. No wonder over 50% of Buffalo's African American males are unemployed. I don't know how you can buy into that website's BS - which contradicts both reality and common sense.

I work all the time, and don't come out a whole hell of a lot better. Not to mention I hardly have any time to enjoy myself.
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Old 11-15-2009, 05:01 PM
 
52,726 posts, read 75,655,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vex View Post
Dude. You're quoting info from the "Liberalism Resurgent." I don't think you can get any more bias than that, not to mention the latest data is from circa 1992...

Welfare disincentives work. If you don't work you get food stamps, section 8 housing, Medicaid, NFTA tokens, and some welfare money for spending. So for doing nothing you get food, housing, transportation, health care and a lil something on the side. No wonder over 50% of Buffalo's African American males are unemployed. I don't know how you can buy into that website's BS - which contradicts both reality and common sense.

I work all the time, and don't come out a whole hell of a lot better. Not to mention I hardly have any time to enjoy myself.
First of all, it is tough to not find information with some type of bias or margin of error.

Second, the way you make it sound, why don't you stop working and try living that life. Yup, I bet you would love to do that. I guess you have never heard of the working poor or welfare for people of other economic backgrounds(Can you say Bailout, for example).

Third, most people aren't even on the assistance for more than 2-5 years. So, it really sounds like people are trying to stay on assistance.

Fourth, maybe your lack of time has to do with how workers are being treated in this country and how selfish of a society we have become.

Fifth, maybe factors like the fact that Buffalo is one of the most segregated metros in the US, the type of work Black males used to do in high numbers have pretty much left the area and many that could possibly find work leave have something to do with that number. Think about the way race and economics are connected and in turn how the segregation plays a part in that. Then, you have to remember that an industry like Steel was one in which blacks could possibly have a middle class standard of living and how many were drawn to work at Lackawanna and a few other mills, including those in the Flour industry. Then, you have people of all backgrounds leaving and taking their education with them, instead of possibly trying to help improve the area.

BTW- are these sites better?
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1302
http://www.anitra.net/homelessness/c...ightmyths.html
http://www.apa.org/pi/wpo/myths.html
http://hcom.csumb.edu/welfare/resources/myths_facts.html (broken link)
http://www.childwelfare.com/welfare_reform_myths.htm

Anyway, I think Buffalo's population might actually stay close to what it is now or decrease at a much slower rate.

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 11-15-2009 at 05:10 PM..
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:19 PM
Vex
 
125 posts, read 221,208 times
Reputation: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
First of all, it is tough to not find information with some type of bias or margin of error.

Second, the way you make it sound, why don't you stop working and try living that life. Yup, I bet you would love to do that. I guess you have never heard of the working poor or welfare for people of other economic backgrounds(Can you say Bailout, for example).

Third, most people aren't even on the assistance for more than 2-5 years. So, it really sounds like people are trying to stay on assistance.

Fourth, maybe your lack of time has to do with how workers are being treated in this country and how selfish of a society we have become.

Fifth, maybe factors like the fact that Buffalo is one of the most segregated metros in the US, the type of work Black males used to do in high numbers have pretty much left the area and many that could possibly find work leave have something to do with that number. Think about the way race and economics are connected and in turn how the segregation plays a part in that. Then, you have to remember that an industry like Steel was one in which blacks could possibly have a middle class standard of living and how many were drawn to work at Lackawanna and a few other mills, including those in the Flour industry. Then, you have people of all backgrounds leaving and taking their education with them, instead of possibly trying to help improve the area.

BTW- are these sites better?
Five Media Myths About Welfare
Eight Great Myths About Welfare
Welfare to Work: Myths
Myths and Facts (http://hcom.csumb.edu/welfare/resources/myths_facts.html - broken link)
Welfare Reform Myths / Myths about welfare reform

Anyway, I think Buffalo's population might actually stay close to what it is now or decrease at a much slower rate.
All you did was google "welfare myths" and list the results. That proves nothing other than that you're trying to reaffirm your preconceived liberal ideas.

I work out of self respect. And I wouldn't have to work so hard if everyone would pull their own weight. Don't pull the workers need better treatment card. That union line of thinking has done enough harm to this country, and Buffalo in particular. If I didn't work for Uncle Sam Monday and Tuesday, I'd have plenty of time on my hands.

"most people aren't even on the assistance for more than 2-5 years" can you verify that this is indeed the case in NY? NY didn't adopt Clinton's welfare reform bill. There are no time limits here. There are no requirements to try and find work. I have family members that have been on the dole for most of their life - and they will continue to be on it as long as it's available.

So here's my question: if someone's job moves away, why is it unacceptable that they relocate to find work? Why should we as a society have to pay for people to do nothing, because they can't be "inconvenienced" to move?

It's the same old entitlement BS - people lose their job but don't want to be retrained to improve their skillset, take a job that pays less than their old one, or move to find work. And they don't have to because the taxpayers will always be there to pick up the tab.
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:40 PM
 
52,726 posts, read 75,655,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vex View Post
All you did was google "welfare myths" and list the results. That proves nothing other than that you're trying to reaffirm your preconceived liberal ideas.

I work out of self respect. And I wouldn't have to work so hard if everyone would pull their own weight. Don't pull the workers need better treatment card. That union line of thinking has done enough harm to this country, and Buffalo in particular. If I didn't work for Uncle Sam Monday and Tuesday, I'd have plenty of time on my hands.

"most people aren't even on the assistance for more than 2-5 years" can you verify that this is indeed the case in NY? NY didn't adopt Clinton's welfare reform bill. There are no time limits here. There are no requirements to try and find work. I have family members that have been on the dole for most of their life - and they will continue to be on it as long as it's available.

So here's my question: if someone's job moves away, why is it unacceptable that they relocate to find work? Why should we as a society have to pay for people to do nothing, because they can't be "inconvenienced" to move?

It's the same old entitlement BS - people lose their job but don't want to be retrained to improve their skillset, take a job that pays less than their old one, or move to find work. And they don't have to because the taxpayers will always be there to pick up the tab.
Nope, I never said or implied that I was a "liberal". like there is necessarily something wrong with that anyway.

Again, the fact that you have family members on assistance doesn't mean that they are the usual folks on assistance. You seem to not understand that you can still work and get "welfare" or assistance, as it is based on criteria.

Where did I say that people should be entitled to anything? You can work and feel entitled about something. So, let's just stay on topic. People get retrained all the time and/or go back to school, but you still have to have something for them to go to. It costs money to move and considering the reality of cost of living and moving expenses, it isn't just an easy, let's move.

Also, where did I say it was unacceptable to move away to find work? My point was that people just criticize without coming up with ideas to make things better.

Lastly, what would be your solution to welfare or to the economy for the area to retain and attract people? So, if everyone can work, what do we do when inflation gets effected due to "overheating", which in turn causes a recession?
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:25 PM
Vex
 
125 posts, read 221,208 times
Reputation: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Lastly, what would be your solution to welfare or to the economy for the area to retain and attract people? So, if everyone can work, what do we do when inflation gets effected due to "overheating", which in turn causes a recession?
I understand that people can work and still get assistance. But the fact that over 50% of Buffalo's AA males are unemployed indicates that that isn't happening in practice - or at least not to the degree it should be.

How should the area create and retain jobs? First, kill all the unions. Unions have long out lived the days they were needed. We have the safe work environment and reasonable work week that the unions originally sought. However, in order to perpetuate their existence, unions will never be satisfied. They will always strive to get their members more for doing less - if they don't, why else would people continue to pay their union dues? I'd love to see NY become a right to work state.

Next, government needs to be reigned in. That means consolidation. That means ending defined benefit plans and low copay health insurance. It means raising the retirement age, and paying a salary that market conditions warrant - no 3-4% raise per year. Raises should be based on merit and results. Many government jobs must be cut. The rampant nepotism found in government, the one that has caused the size of Buffalo's government to double over the same time its population has halved must be undone.

NY must institute welfare reforms. We need to adopt Clinton's welfare reform act and end institutionalized poverty. Cuts need to be made in education and medicaid spending. NY should not spend above the national average. Especially when studies have shown spending has little to no effect on educational outcomes.

All the above cuts must be met with corresponding tax reductions. Low taxes stimulate jobs and economic growth. That's why in 2008 Texas created more jobs than the other 49 states combined.

I don't buy your argument that this will cause inflation. Wyoming has consistently had the lowest unemployment rate of around 4% over the past 5 years and has managed to experience an increase in purchasing power. If everyone on welfare worked and cyclical unemployment was at 0, there would still be around 5% unemployment due to frictional, structural and seasonal unemployment...
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:44 PM
 
52,726 posts, read 75,655,874 times
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Originally Posted by Vex View Post
I understand that people can work and still get assistance. But the fact that over 50% of Buffalo's AA males are unemployed indicates that that isn't happening in practice - or at least not to the degree it should be.

How should the area create and retain jobs? First, kill all the unions. Unions have long out lived the days they were needed. We have the safe work environment and reasonable work week that the unions originally sought. However, in order to perpetuate their existence, unions will never be satisfied. They will always strive to get their members more for doing less - if they don't, why else would people continue to pay their union dues? I'd love to see NY become a right to work state.

Next, government needs to be reigned in. That means consolidation. That means ending defined benefit plans and low copay health insurance. It means raising the retirement age, and paying a salary that market conditions warrant - no 3-4% raise per year. Raises should be based on merit and results. Many government jobs must be cut. The rampant nepotism found in government, the one that has caused the size of Buffalo's government to double over the same time its population has halved must be undone.

NY must institute welfare reforms. We need to adopt Clinton's welfare reform act and end institutionalized poverty. Cuts need to be made in education and medicaid spending. NY should not spend above the national average. Especially when studies have shown spending has little to no effect on educational outcomes.

All the above cuts must be met with corresponding tax reductions. Low taxes stimulate jobs and economic growth. That's why in 2008 Texas created more jobs than the other 49 states combined.

I don't buy your argument that this will cause inflation. Wyoming has consistently had the lowest unemployment rate of around 4% over the past 5 years and has managed to experience an increase in purchasing power. If everyone on welfare worked and cyclical unemployment was at 0, there would still be around 5% unemployment due to frictional, structural and seasonal unemployment...
As for Texas, I think it has to do with no sales tax/lower taxes and it didn't hurt that the past president was from there, among other things.

As for Wyoming, they have had a boom with the energy industry and they even have a plant that uses the Solvay Process, which was used in my area up until 20 years ago. I believe it is used for mining, and petroleum/gas production has increased too. Green River has boomed due to this process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_River,_Wyoming

As for the supposed figure of 50% of Buffalo's AA males not working, I think there are many factors that need to be considered like networking, education, family structure, segregation and if they might work seasonally, among other factors.

So, you would only consolidate in terms of government jobs and if so, what in particular? Schools, consolidate towns, etc...?

If you don't buy what I'm saying about "overheating", then take that up with one of the "best" economists this country has ever had in Milton Friedman: Monetarism
The Natural Rate of Unemployment
Milton Friedman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe the point was that you can't completely get rid of "welfare", because you are always going to have someone that will need some form of assistance and this doesn't even get into other forms of assistance like Medicare or student loans, for example.
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Old 11-15-2009, 08:10 PM
Vex
 
125 posts, read 221,208 times
Reputation: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
As for Texas, I think it has to do with no sales tax/lower taxes and it didn't hurt that the past president was from there, among other things.

As for Wyoming, they have had a boom with the energy industry and they even have a plant that uses the Solvay Process, which was used in my area up until 20 years ago. I believe it is used for mining, and petroleum/gas production has increased too. Green River has boomed due to this process: Green River, Wyoming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for the supposed figure of 50% of Buffalo's AA males not working, I think there are many factors that need to be considered like networking, education, family structure, segregation and if they might work seasonally, among other factors.

So, you would only consolidate in terms of government jobs and if so, what in particular? Schools, consolidate towns, etc...?

If you don't buy what I'm saying about "overheating", then take that up with one of the "best" economists this country has ever had in Milton Friedman: Monetarism
The Natural Rate of Unemployment
Milton Friedman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe the point was that you can't completely get rid of "welfare", because you are always going to have someone that will need some form of assistance and this doesn't even get into other forms of assistance like Medicare or student loans, for example.
Texas has a sales tax. They have no income tax. Second, Texas pays more to the federal government than it receives, so the argument that the former president was from there doesn't hold water.

The 50% figure is not "supposed." It used to be on the Buffalo news. Now it seems I can only find references to it. GCASA Cares: Buffalo has highest unemployment rate in nation for black males

You're saying that no unemployment will cause inflation. While I disagree, I'm also saying it's impossible to get to a 0%, or much below 5% unemployment rate due to the different types of unemployment. Also, I respect and admire Mr. Friedman, but I subscribe to supply side economics. Milton comes in at a close 2nd though.

I would consolidate government at every possible level. There is far too much overlap. We do not need a set of administrators for every department of every town. I would consolidate all school districts into one county-wide district.

I would also subcontract as much work as possible to the private sector - where competitive bids would drive efficiency and yield greater value per dollar spent.

But all of this will never happen so I will probably just move away instead. Haha
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Old 11-16-2009, 08:47 AM
 
52,726 posts, read 75,655,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vex View Post
Texas has a sales tax. They have no income tax. Second, Texas pays more to the federal government than it receives, so the argument that the former president was from there doesn't hold water.

The 50% figure is not "supposed." It used to be on the Buffalo news. Now it seems I can only find references to it. GCASA Cares: Buffalo has highest unemployment rate in nation for black males

You're saying that no unemployment will cause inflation. While I disagree, I'm also saying it's impossible to get to a 0%, or much below 5% unemployment rate due to the different types of unemployment. Also, I respect and admire Mr. Friedman, but I subscribe to supply side economics. Milton comes in at a close 2nd though.

I would consolidate government at every possible level. There is far too much overlap. We do not need a set of administrators for every department of every town. I would consolidate all school districts into one county-wide district.

I would also subcontract as much work as possible to the private sector - where competitive bids would drive efficiency and yield greater value per dollar spent.

But all of this will never happen so I will probably just move away instead. Haha
Why wouldn't no unemployment not cause a recession? With everybody now having a job, that in turn doesn't leave a surplus of workers to look for. So, things will bust, like it did in some many places recently.

I actually agree with you on the county wide school district thing and that includes the city, with open enrollemnt options. I think the tough thing about that is the perceieved status of moving to a suburban community for the schools. That in turn would make the point moot as for moving to such communities in the minds of many, because everyone would be in the same boat, in a sense, in terms of schools.

As for the 50% number, if you look at other cities in the same boat, all of them are among the most segregated cites/metros in the US for Blacks(Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis and Detroit). So, that in turn brings about a stigma, shows how networking in terms of jobs goes and the level at which said people worked in the general workforce, as well as what jobs have been effected by the economy. This is even occurring in a state like Texas to some degree in regards to cutting manufacturing/production jobs.

Here's some interesting information on Texas and funding, by the way: Texas, Run by Secessionist Guv, Has Received More Federal Disaster Relief Than Any State | Mother Jones
Update: Billions Have Gone to TX in Federal Disaster Aid During Perry's Tenure | Mother Jones

and more info. on Texas: Do We Want the US to Be More Like Texas? - The Atlantic Business Channel

and hopefully, the energy industry don't bust or Texas could be hurting.
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Old 11-16-2009, 11:39 AM
Vex
 
125 posts, read 221,208 times
Reputation: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Why wouldn't no unemployment not cause a recession? With everybody now having a job, that in turn doesn't leave a surplus of workers to look for. So, things will bust, like it did in some many places recently.

I actually agree with you on the county wide school district thing and that includes the city, with open enrollemnt options. I think the tough thing about that is the perceieved status of moving to a suburban community for the schools. That in turn would make the point moot as for moving to such communities in the minds of many, because everyone would be in the same boat, in a sense, in terms of schools.

As for the 50% number, if you look at other cities in the same boat, all of them are among the most segregated cites/metros in the US for Blacks(Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis and Detroit). So, that in turn brings about a stigma, shows how networking in terms of jobs goes and the level at which said people worked in the general workforce, as well as what jobs have been effected by the economy. This is even occurring in a state like Texas to some degree in regards to cutting manufacturing/production jobs.

Here's some interesting information on Texas and funding, by the way: Texas, Run by Secessionist Guv, Has Received More Federal Disaster Relief Than Any State | Mother Jones
Update: Billions Have Gone to TX in Federal Disaster Aid During Perry's Tenure | Mother Jones

and more info. on Texas: Do We Want the US to Be More Like Texas? - The Atlantic Business Channel

and hopefully, the energy industry don't bust or Texas could be hurting.
It's impossible to get to 100% employment even if you do away with these welfare bums (See different types of unemployment.) Therefore, we will never have to worry about inflation and a recession because unemployment will be at best around 5%.

Perhaps there are some societal problems in these cities with high AA unemployment. But I think by and large the biggest problems lie within black culture - but I suppose that's a different debate for a different day.

Why are you proposing that disaster aid that Texas received is somehow responsible for its job/economic growth? Texas paid more to the government than it received. Maybe it got a lot of disaster aid, but that's only one part of the picture. Taken as a whole, the federal government has a net negative effect on Texas' economy.

The answer is YES, we do want to be more like Texas. Just as Texas is one of the most competitive states, we need to be the most competitive nations. And big government will NEVER be the answer. For the love of God I don't want the US to be another Europe. That just isn't good enough for me.
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Old 11-17-2009, 07:59 AM
 
52,726 posts, read 75,655,874 times
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Originally Posted by Vex View Post
It's impossible to get to 100% employment even if you do away with these welfare bums (See different types of unemployment.) Therefore, we will never have to worry about inflation and a recession because unemployment will be at best around 5%.

Perhaps there are some societal problems in these cities with high AA unemployment. But I think by and large the biggest problems lie within black culture - but I suppose that's a different debate for a different day.

Why are you proposing that disaster aid that Texas received is somehow responsible for its job/economic growth? Texas paid more to the government than it received. Maybe it got a lot of disaster aid, but that's only one part of the picture. Taken as a whole, the federal government has a net negative effect on Texas' economy.

The answer is YES, we do want to be more like Texas. Just as Texas is one of the most competitive states, we need to be the most competitive nations. And big government will NEVER be the answer. For the love of God I don't want the US to be another Europe. That just isn't good enough for me.
Perhaps "Black culture"(whatever one considers such) to a degree, but I wouldn't discount the reality of race and segregation, especially in the cities mentioned.

Again, while Texas is doing fine now, things are cyclical, as we've seen recently. So, I believe Buffalo and NY State will have their time in the sun again. Considering that over 19 million people still live in the state and other factors that make the potential for Upstate cities scary, it's just a matter of time. There are some things that are in Texas that I wouldn't, as the article showed. I also just find it ironic how Texas is getting so much aid for a state with a governor that wanted to possibly leave the Union.

As for welfare, you basically are just backing up my claim as to why you are going to have "welfare", as people generally consider it, to some degree. Like anything, there are going to be people that abuse it, but for the most part, like the information backed up, it is very much the exception.

Now again, Buffalo's population will probably stay close to what it is now. Especially if there are still some economic issues and even if there aren't, I think people will see what a place like the Buffalo area has to offer and possibly work harder to create some growth. It has to just use it public and private institutions for research and to create some spinoffs in terms of technology and energy, among other things. There really are some things in place right now for that to happen now, if people care enough to tap into them.
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