Where are Buffalonians fleeing to? (Syracuse, Amherst: crime, unemployment, buy)

[hockeygirl4]

Again, I must point out, are these statistics for the "City of Buffalo" ONLY? If so, then it's not accurately noted. Please combine The City of Buffalo, along with all the surrounding suburbs in WNY, then let me know how the crime compares. For figures sake, the population just in the City of Buffalo, comes no where close to Las Vegas where the population is close to, if not more than 2 million, so obviously, it's going to look like crime, job loss, foreclosure and any other category for that matter is much worse when compared to a smaller city like Buffalo.

For the record Jblake, in the 10 months I've been living here, I have not seen a poisonous snake, no scorpions, no tarantulas, however I did see a black widow that was non-poisonous. If there were poisonous snakes everywhere in Las Vegas, do you really think the Strip would be a popular place to walk around? Can you imagine the threat of getting bitten by a poisonous snake while checking out the lights and sights? Lol wow...... No mosquitos out here either..come to think of it, the most annoying bugs, are the occasional fly, and maybe a moth. Oh, forgive me, I have killed 5 cockroaches in my apartment since moving here, which honestly, are as widespread as ants in Buffalo.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by Canerican

Whatever luddite decided that Las Vegas was more dangerous than Buffalo needs to be fired.

The only crime category that is higher in Vegas than Buffalo is Auto Thefts.






And that's fine, you are aware that you can live in a house for 15-20 in Las Vegas then sell it too, right? Buffalo, contrary to your assertion is not the only city that you can live in one house for your whole life. The difference is, when you sell your house in Vegas in 20 years, it will likely be worth 2-3 more than your initial investment, in Buffalo it might be worth the same in terms of real dollars, maybe less.

Is Buffalo worth not being able to gain on your largest investment? That is a decision that each person needs to make for themselves. You obviously have been well blessed and can afford to not see your house as an investment. For the middle and lower classes, a house might be their only major asset, and it's probably worth less than your stock portfolio, right?



Congratulations, you are one of few in the area that has found these things. You are probably living better than most of your neighbors.

The story for most in WNY is: "I have an OK job, my wife has a job that is below her qualifications. My kids school has been overrun by failures, and the teachers just don't care. Only 50% of their class will graduate. I would move, but I know it would be too hard on my children."

Then the children graduate and they move to far superior towns such as Toledo, Las Vegas, Boston, Austin, or Columbus.

Huh? besides, Buffalo City Schools and I've showed the variance within that district, most of the other school districts are in the 80's and 90's in terms of grad. percentage, with maybe an exception or two.

Also, to compare those cities, with the exception of Toledo, is like Apples and Oranges due to being much bigger or "different" metros. I'm not even sure Toledo is faring all that well anyway.

Also, I think you forgot that the housing market has been one of the most stable in the country too.

As for the crime comparison, do you know what are the crime boundaries of Las Vegas? Then, you have to consider the fact of how much of the city of Las Vegas is sprawl that looks like a Buffalo suburb. So, the addition of more land to the city of Las Vegas can skew those numbers.

[RocketSci]

Originally Posted by Canerican

Whatever luddite decided that Las Vegas was more dangerous than Buffalo needs to be fired.

The only crime category that is higher in Vegas than Buffalo is Auto Thefts.

The statistics you posted are for Clark County NV, not LV proper.

2008 Metropolitan Crime Rankings
http://os.cqpress.com/citycrime/Metr...8_Rank_Rev.pdf
Worst to Best:
#1 - Pine Bluff AR - 117.66
#4 - Las Vegas-Paradise NV - Score = 93.69
#151 - Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY - Score = -4.19

2008 City Crime Rankings
http://os.cqpress.com/citycrime/City...8_Rank_Rev.pdf
#1 - New Orleans LA - Score 441.40
#29 - Buffalo NY - Score = 167.43
#56 - Las Vegas NV - 116.25

One of the differences between the North and the South and West (particularly the South) is that in the NE and Midwest crime tends to be concentrated in a few urban neighborhoods, and in the South and West it is spread out more.

If you look closely at specific areas, you see a lot of differences between zip codes (source Real Estate, Foreclosures, Community data and Luxury Property Listings - CLRSearch.com) (based upon 7 year average FBI crime reports):

Average US = 100 = Total Crime Risk Index
14201 - 150 - Lower West Side Buffalo
14212 - 108 - East Side/Broadway
14220 - 130 - South Buffalo
14216 - 156 - North Buffalo
14217 - 16 - Kenmore
14221 - 17 - Amherst
14223 - 2 - Tonawanda

So yes, relative to the suburbs, the city does have higher crime - BUT:

"What would be a typical "city" or "country" crime risk?
As one might expect, crime risk is generally higher in urban environments. As a general rule of thumb, typical densely populated urban areas might have twice the national average crime risk (200), while sparsely populated rural area might have half the national crime risk (50).
Keep in mind that a crime risk of 150 does not indicate high crime and is very typical for cities - even in their safest neighborhoods."

So now just some random Las Vegas Zip Codes, as I don't know the area:
89102 - 168
89104 - 415
89117 - 206
89106 - 352
89128 - 277
89123 - 3
89119 - 1

So, the worst of the random zip codes in LV are over 2x worse than the Buffalo neighborhoods - and it looks like the East Side/Broadway area of Buffalo has less crime than North Buffalo.

I like the way the source site answers questions about crime:

"ZIP codes often contain several disparate areas. Perhaps you live in a gated community, but there may be other areas included in the ZIP code. Some times, truck stops, highway corridors, commercial / industrial areas located in the ZIP code can have a negative effect on overall crime rates.
Neighborhoods are constantly changing. The risk indexes are based upon the most recent seven years of FBI crime reports. While the index is weighted more heavily toward the more recent reports, neighborhoods can change quickly with new development and population growth.
High income, affluent neighborhoods often demonstrate a high risk for property crimes such as motor vehicle theft and larceny.

All, please stick to the facts and set aside insults. I know the above are nothing but statistics, but when you damn an entire city/region for localized crimes it is unfair to people trying to make informed decisions.

[Canerican]

Originally Posted by RocketSci

I like the way the source site answers questions about crime:

"ZIP codes often contain several disparate areas. Perhaps you live in a gated community, but there may be other areas included in the ZIP code. Some times, truck stops, highway corridors, commercial / industrial areas located in the ZIP code can have a negative effect on overall crime rates.
Neighborhoods are constantly changing. The risk indexes are based upon the most recent seven years of FBI crime reports. While the index is weighted more heavily toward the more recent reports, neighborhoods can change quickly with new development and population growth.
High income, affluent neighborhoods often demonstrate a high risk for property crimes such as motor vehicle theft and larceny.

This would suggest that using county-wide data would be the most successful, but then it might measure too great an area.

Look at Clark County vs. Erie County. Clark's population is actually just about 2x Erie (maybe 1.9x when this data was taken), meaning that both Buffalo and Las Vegas have a pretty much identical crime rate.

I actually appears that in 2000 the violent crime rate was higher in that county (which I checked, is no longer true, likely due to more lax gun laws in NV now).

Crime

Crime

=====

It is true what you quoted, it's all where you go. I bet that I couldn't last a night walking around Newark, but I bet, even 10 miles away, there would be places where I would gladly live (if they weren't in NJ).

You can get into trouble in Buffalo pretty much anywhere, but come to my neighborhood in Getzville, and you will find car doors unlocked. When I am running out for a quick errand (less than 20 minutes) I almost never lock the doors. I never lock my car door during the day. In Buffalo, that would mean that your stuff is gone.

That is probably the one thing that reminds me of living in a small town, you know who belongs in your neighborhood up where I live. When I lived in NNY, if there was someone from out of town, they would probably get asked where they are from within about 10 minutes.

[RocketSci]

Originally Posted by Canerican

I bet that I couldn't last a night walking around Newark...

You can get into trouble in Buffalo pretty much anywhere...

...in Buffalo, that would mean that your stuff is gone.

As I said earlier:

"...when you damn an entire city/region for localized crimes it is unfair to people trying to make informed decisions."

and as Ronald Reagan said: "There you go again."

[Canerican]

Originally Posted by RocketSci

As I said earlier:

"...when you damn an entire city/region for localized crimes it is unfair to people trying to make informed decisions."

and as Ronald Reagan said: "There you go again."

Moderator cut: argumentative Give me one area of Buffalo that people could leave their houses unlocked or their cars open and they would not have anything stolen if they kept this up for 5 years.

There is not one area. I can generalize about Buffalo, because it's true. Buffalo is a generally crime-ridden city, where if you don't leave it locked, it's not yours.

Again, one area of Buffalo, where you would leave your car parked with the doors unlocked overnight, and would feel very confident that everything would be in it.

Moderator cut: argumentative there is no area like that in Buffalo. I was actually being nice to WNY, saying that there are areas like that... now if the people defending WNY for all they've got could pick up on the positive things, and not go after every single person that criticizes the area, you all might get somewhere.

[RocketSci]

Originally Posted by Canerican

Moderator cut: argumentative Give me one area of Buffalo that people could leave their houses unlocked or their cars open and they would not have anything stolen if they kept this up for 5 years.

There is not one area. I can generalize about Buffalo, because it's true. Buffalo is a generally crime-ridden city, where if you don't leave it locked, it's not yours.

Again, one area of Buffalo, where you would leave your car parked with the doors unlocked overnight, and would feel very confident that everything would be in it.

Moderator cut: argumentative there is no area like that in Buffalo. I was actually being nice to WNY, saying that there are areas like that... now if the people defending WNY for all they've got could pick up on the positive things, and not go after every single person that criticizes the area, you all might get somewhere.

Odds are that on any given day in Buffalo you can leave your house and car unlocked without getting things stolen. I know many residents who have never had anything stolen or burglarized in Buffalo in over 20 years. It is all a matter of odds, and the odds are higher that it may happen in some areas more than others, but there is no guarantee that if you leave your house and car open and unlocked in Getzville things aren't going to get stolen either. Is it a smart thing to leave your doors unlocked - I would say no, not in any metropolitan area - but you can't paint an entire area with such a wide brush. Should you park off Franklin on a weekend night with your doors unlocked - no. How about at the Galleria on a weekend day - no. How about UB lot in Amherst - no. Your yard in Getzville or South Buffalo - unlocked doors happen all the time.

I don't think I'm trying to paint an unfair picture of Buffalo - of course it has its problems (duh) - but at the same time to say that you are being "nice to WNY" and preemptively calling me a liar while bashing every little thing you see wrong in WNY is unfair to those trying to use this forum as a source of data and information about the area. Generalization is not appropriate either in blindly cheerleading an area, or exaggerating its faults.

Some people happen to actually like the excitement of living in an urban area, and although Buffalo may not have the density or flavor of Toronto or Boston - many people actually do prefer it over Wheatfield, or Getzville, or Ashford Hollow. Some people like walking down the block to get a fresh cannoli filled on the spot, or having a choice of several restaurants to walk to, or not having to fight 6-lane traffic to ride a bicycle from your own driveway, or being able to easily hop on a bus to the public library. In Buffalo you don't have to be rich to live in the better city neighborhoods, or enjoy what cities have to offer those who seek such things.

Finally, having grown up in the City of Buffalo, one learns to not hurl insults at others without being prepared to fight. Much of the Buffalo crime statistics, I'm sure, are a result of the areas drinking and fighting culture, and real or perceived insults among the participants. If you don't want to be a statistic in Buffalo you don't have to - but if one wishes to continue to insult people and their home, then there are plenty of people in the area who are ready to stand up.

Moderator cut: comment you were quoting/replying to has been deleted
Now have a nice day.

[Wingfoot]

Originally Posted by Orwelleaut

Moved to Ohio from near Elmira in the 90's, and have met a lot of folks from Western NY around here. Until the last couple of years at least, greater Cleveland was still growing, and jobs were plentiful for those that knew how to do a decent search. Personally, I'd think that anyone from Buffalo would feel quite at home in Toledo, greater Cleveland, or even Akron-Canton or Youngstown-Warren. We still have the Lake Erie shore, there a lots of little lakes for fishing/swimming/boating, and you have the good pizza and good Italian/German/Polish restaurants in Northern Ohio.

Bouffalonians would be at home in Milwaukee area too. quite a few around. Propert taxes are about half.

[jrice]

Originally Posted by Canerican

This would suggest that using county-wide data would be the most successful, but then it might measure too great an area.

Look at Clark County vs. Erie County. Clark's population is actually just about 2x Erie (maybe 1.9x when this data was taken), meaning that both Buffalo and Las Vegas have a pretty much identical crime rate.

I actually appears that in 2000 the violent crime rate was higher in that county (which I checked, is no longer true, likely due to more lax gun laws in NV now).

Crime

Crime

=====

It is true what you quoted, it's all where you go. I bet that I couldn't last a night walking around Newark, but I bet, even 10 miles away, there would be places where I would gladly live (if they weren't in NJ).

You can get into trouble in Buffalo pretty much anywhere, but come to my neighborhood in Getzville, and you will find car doors unlocked. When I am running out for a quick errand (less than 20 minutes) I almost never lock the doors. I never lock my car door during the day. In Buffalo, that would mean that your stuff is gone.

That is probably the one thing that reminds me of living in a small town, you know who belongs in your neighborhood up where I live. When I lived in NNY, if there was someone from out of town, they would probably get asked where they are from within about 10 minutes.

There are a couple of things to take into account when comparing crime in the Las Vegas area

1. Some crimes go unreported. Most illegal aliens living in Las Vegas (which makes up a very large number of the population) will not report a crime unless they absolutely have to (like murder, etc) because they fear that Metro (police) will contact INS

2. I don't know Buffalo, but if its like Syracuse, you have areas where crime is more prevalent (northside, southside, etc) but in Las Vegas it is comparatively speaking all spread out. There is no area where it doesn't happen.

3. Those stats most likely do not take into account crime that happens in North Las Vegas (seperate police force)

[Canerican]

Moderator cut: personal attack

There are no areas in Buffalo proper that you could leave your car parked on the road for an entire year and not have theft... That is likely true of all major cities though.

I honestly wish you would stop instigating this crap. Just because I don't agree with opinion that Buffalo is a shining city on a hill, with no MAJOR problems, doesn't mean that you ought to malign and insult me. I don't really care, but I would love to have a normal mature conversation on this board.

Urban Peasant, Buffalonian4Life, UpstaterinBklyn, ckthankgod, Buffalolight, FedUpWNY, and most other regular posters on this board are very good to talk and debate with. I wish the other 2 or 3 could grow and learn to take criticism. I understand rational disagreement, but when someone tells you that disagreeing with someone in a big city will get you beat up... it goes beyond bizarre (don't forget I've actually lived in big cities, including Montreal for 12 year (over 2 million people)).

Sorry to bring this thread so OT.

I find it interesting that so many people are simply going out of state. That must mean that people who are moving aren't just leaving because they hate Buffalo for not good reason. They are obviously leaving for places that have more reasonable tax structures... And when you live in NY, that isn't tough to find.

I've never really thought that there was an intrinsic problem with Buffalo. I think that it's the state that's bringing the city down. I bet without NYS regulations, taxes, and unions, Buffalo would look like Pittsburgh. As many problems as there are in Buffalo, the city can't really turn around until Albany stops treating NYC like the prodigal son, and remembering that there are other interests (like the 8 million that live outside of the of NY metro area).

I honestly think that this is why NYC needs to be its own administrative district... But that would never happen, as the overwhelmingly downstate Assembly knows that without pulling upstate along, NYC can't get all of it's funds. It's seriously a sad system, when our governor coming to the 2nd largest city only happens when there is an emergency or a fund raiser.