In a World Economy is an America Middle Class even possible? (sell, companies)

[KevK]

Originally Posted by Wild Style

From what I've seen others say about these I.T jobs being outsourced and coming back useless, just tells me the U.S. can still compete and beat most other countries in the latest technological innovations.

To explain the last part of what you said. I will give you the perspective of a person who was in the industry from before the .com bust days.

say from 2000 to 2002 the I.T. market became flooded with people who did those 6 mths MCSE courses (this is just the network admin side I am speaking of right now). You would go into office buildings and see a team of 10 people all of which had absolutely no work to do. Companies not understanding I.T. and what their needs truly were actually over hired and the quality of the people in the field was extremely poor. See, those MCSE courses are HORRIBLE for someone new to the field, they are meant for people working in the field currently. The amount of information you have to absorb is to much to be done in a six months time span. Anyway, these people flooded the market (just like the mortgage broker and real estate broker market was flooded with people). So with the year 2001 comes a horrible recession and companies finally started assessing their needs and realized they could do with far less people; so the lay offs began. Networking jobs were never outsourced, companies just cut back on staff and hiring. Now as more companies are starting to incorporate more technology in their day to day operations, their needs are growing. However the amount of people in the field fell dramatically since 2001, when the lays off came many people didn't return to the field. I know a CIO who was making six figures, he was laid off back in 2001 and he became a manager at a hardware store. Now some 6 yrs later he still hasn't returned to the field and says he wont. Also combine that with lower enrollment in C.S. programs and you get a worker shortage.

Now as for programmers, a lot of that was outsourced and it is now coming back. Not because we in America are so much better at it, but because the code being sent back from places like India is coming back screwed up. It is taking companies time just to sort through code and fix it. I know a senior programmer at the citrix headquarters down here and he was telling me they can not find enough qualified programmers in the states, so they are forced to outsource work, but the code is coming back screwed. There are a lot of articles on the net talking about this as well. The Miami Herald just did a pretty good piece on this subject a few months ago, if I can find it, I will post it here. Anyone going into this field now is in good shape, they just need to make sure they do internships while in school or it will be hard for them to get a job. Reason being is, a lot of these companies are under staffed and don't have the time to catch a programmer up to speed. Also as I said before, we tried to hire a database admin and couldn't find a qualified person. The only semi qualified person ended up turning us down for a better paying job. The pool of applicants is definitely smaller these days.[/quote]

Then what the government is going to do to appease big business and keep wages and benefits in check is to rachet up the number of H1B visas until they can fill those jobs at lower wage rates. I will bet you this will happen either next year or the year after- especially if Hillary gets elected.

[KevK]

Originally Posted by Wild Style

Ah I see your problem. You don't understand whatthe telecommunication industry entails nor lets say for example network administration entails. So you, with your limited understanding, thinks that since one thing is no longer plentiful thats it for that entire industry. Let me explain to you a few things. I worked with Lucent before I got into Network administration. I work for the Project Management team that over saw all the contractor collocation work through out North America (that includes Canada). Simply put, how this works is, lets say a company wants to start offering broadband, they would have to go into say a pactel or bellsouth and feed ofisf of their broadband infrustructor. This is called collocation. Once all the fiber is laid out (which was actually done in bulk from 2000 to like 2004) you then had test and turn up. Meaning making sure all lines are optimal, also increasing speeds, maintainence etc. Anyone who actually worked in the industry (not some small time person who worked for a contractor) knew that there would come a time there would be no more lines to lay down. However that is not the only thing that telecommunications covers. For example, the phone systems in office buildings, thats telecomm, 3g cellular phone network that is also telcomm. Managing systems like the old merlin legend phone system (thats old school). So yes grunt work like throwing down fiber is slowing down, i mean there is oh but so much fiber you can lay down before the job is pretty much done. However anyone who knowns anything about telecomm knows that is not the bulk of that field. As to your statements about networking, and your assessment of the field, there isnt a reason to really address it. There is more than enough info on the internet to prove you are incorrect. Anyone interested in the field should contact someone who actually WORKS in the field or just read the hundreds of articles out there assessing the current state of I.T.

I still disagree with your assessment about telecom. Telecom is not the next great thing people think. The field is crowded with people now. How much do you think a field tech that works on PBX systems makes excluding Lucent and Avaya who are union and thus enjoy artificially high wages and benefits??? Pay rates I have seen are about $21 an hour which is not exactly great money when you live in a metro where the average house might cost upwards of $300,000 and where you must own 2 cars if both of you work (and maybe even if both of you do not work). Even if you have a dual income, after you get hit with Federal, Medicare, SS, state (6% here) ad valoreum, sales (7% here) and property taxes, you paycheck just shrunk quite a bit. Now add to that $2000 a month mortgage, payments and insurance on 2 cars, kid's school expenses, clothes, food, lights, gas, cable TV (yes I know it is a luxury but if prisoners get it, so the hell am I), water bills (mine runs about $120 a month and I do NOT water my lawn) and $3 a gallon gasoline you will soon find that the $21 an hour is not as much as it seems on paper.

[Wild Style]

Originally Posted by KevK

I still disagree with your assessment about telecom. Telecom is not the next great thing people think. The field is crowded with people now. How much do you think a field tech that works on PBX systems makes excluding Lucent and Avaya who are union and thus enjoy artificially high wages and benefits??? Pay rates I have seen are about $21 an hour which is not exactly great money when you live in a metro where the average house might cost upwards of $300,000 and where you must own 2 cars if both of you work (and maybe even if both of you do not work). Even if you have a dual income, after you get hit with Federal, Medicare, SS, state (6% here) ad valoreum, sales (7% here) and property taxes, you paycheck just shrunk quite a bit. Now add to that $2000 a month mortgage, payments and insurance on 2 cars, kid's school expenses, clothes, food, lights, gas, cable TV (yes I know it is a luxury but if prisoners get it, so the hell am I), water bills (mine runs about $120 a month and I do NOT water my lawn) and $3 a gallon gasoline you will soon find that the $21 an hour is not as much as it seems on paper.

Meh, like I said, I just hope more people think like you.

[sheri257]

Generally, I have to agree with the OP's analysis because even with medical professions there's no guarantee.

I changed careers and became an RN because of following reasons:

* You can't (at least for the most part) export heathcare jobs overseas.
* Nursing requires a skilled labor force and, consequently, there was a labor shortage.
* There are significant barriers of entry for the labor pool since at least four years of education and a licensing exam is required.

Yet ... nursing wages for the most part nationwide have remained stagnant. In most states, you're lucky if the wages keep up with inflation. Only unionized states like California and New York pay nurses well. And, even then, many hospitals in my area have actually cut pension and other benefits for new hires.

So ... even when you get the education and skills required for an in-demand profession where there's actually a significant labor shortage ... there still is major pressure by the powers that be to keep wages and benefits low.

IMO, this doesn't bode well for the middle class.

[KevK]

Originally Posted by sheri257

Generally, I have to agree with the OP's analysis because even with medical professions there's no guarantee.

I changed careers and became an RN because of following reasons:

* You can't (at least for the most part) export heathcare jobs overseas.
* Nursing requires a skilled labor force and, consequently, there was a labor shortage.
* There are significant barriers of entry for the labor pool since at least four years of education and a licensing exam is required.

Yet ... nursing wages for the most part nationwide have remained stagnant. In most states, you're lucky if the wages keep up with inflation. Only unionized states like California and New York pay nurses well. And, even then, many hospitals in my area have actually cut pension and other benefits for new hires.

So ... even when you get the education and skills required for an in-demand profession where there's actually a significant labor shortage ... there still is major pressure by the powers that be to keep wages and benefits low.

IMO, this doesn't bode well for the middle class.

Again this makes the point that, until now, democracy has held your job to be middle class. But that can be done away with and there is movement to do just that. They want to give more of your duties to LPNs and NAs and they want to import RNs from the Phillipines. They may cut the licensing requirements too. All this will act to cut your pay and benefits and eventually the job of RN will be a "worker class" job.

[spinrider2000]

hummmm, middle class possible? For a short time (yes) but going away. Then, as going away, there is less tax $$ going to the fed and more fed benefits being paid. Then government PANIC, and promises are made and not kept. I believe in the far end the answer is NO. I am generally optimistic, but I believe living standards are going, going, and then gone.

[UpperPeninsulaRon]

Everyone throws around the term "middle class". Can someone define it for me? That is the problem. We hear talk about helping the middle class, giving the middle class tax breaks, etc. but who are we really talking about. Certainly there cannot be one income treshold which automatically put one into the "middle class".

It is like people who say "Thanks goodness it was only a Cat 4 hurricane" when there is only one mile per hour difference in the definition of a Cat 4 or a Cat 5. I don't think that there is any less damage in a 1 MPH less storm just because it is called a Cat 4.

So why don't we use a measurable definition for middle class before so we can all know what we are talking about. It should come out as a combination of many measurable variables that can be used to give a general range of agreement. Unfortunately, that's the hard part. So we will just continue to hear "We must help the struggling middle class" - whatever that is.

[randian]

Is the middle class shrinking? Yes. Is that bad? No. Why? Because the upper classes are getting bigger, and the lower classes aren't.

[meimei88]

I know that the company my friend works for just hire 10 chemists in china. The cost (salary,benifit, office supply etc) to hire one with master or PHD degree chemist is above the 100K/year. In china you pay less than the half of it with excellent lab equipments and service. I don't know how to compare a PHD in chemistry and a IT expert, but I do know there are lot of smart, ambicious and young college graduates in china are willing to take any challenge!

[nic529]

Originally Posted by randian

Is the middle class shrinking? Yes. Is that bad? No. Why? Because the upper classes are getting bigger, and the lower classes aren't.

The lower classes aren't growing? That is simply not true.