How to survive; 2008 - 2009 (percentage, status, mortgages, purchase)

[58robbo]

Originally Posted by Lulu101

I have no idea who Bob Hoffman is, but I don't understand what your problem is with Bette's post? Are you recommending that people be irresponsible and go into foreclosure so they can walk away? That just seems wrong.

i don't believe people have a moral obligation to service their debt. a persons first responsibility is to himself and his family. if it makes sense for someone to walk away he must do so. contractually and in law, there are provisions for this. the banks know what the law is and they must use it to seek remedy. they know what their rights are, they also know what their borrowers rights are. they loaned money with this risk in mind. if they were that concerned about default they should have asked for deposits, checked the borrowers income and loaned within their means. now you get people talking about suffering because it's 'the right thing to do'! please give me a break.

bob hoffman offers brilliant advice to those who are underwater and battling to make ends meet. yes they will be punished namely they probably won't be able to finance anything for a few years but they knew what the risks were when they borrowed. i doubt they would've accepted the life sentence the banks want them to self impose. ie being chained to your desk for the next 40 years trying to service your debt!

[floridasandy]

i think mr. hoffman's advice is mostly pitiful. if you are not living an honorable life, what life are you living?
telling people to run their credit cards up and / or stay in their homes without paying anything is irresponsible. he actually is advising to screw somebody over so that you personally can get ahead. the only way we will make it out of this in this country is human decency, working together, and trust. why do you think the mennonite society is so successful? they honor their contracts and their word is their bond.
the only part that i question on housing is that maybe some of the banks should need to renegotiate the interest since they were more business savvy and played with the interest rates (although the bailout freed them from any responsibilities whatsoever), but that does not mean that those homeowners should be rewarded for their poor business sense either. people don't have the right to stay in a bigger home than they can afford just because they want to!

[58robbo]

Originally Posted by floridasandy

i think mr. hoffman's advice is mostly pitiful. if you are not living an honorable life, what life are you living?
telling people to run their credit cards up and / or stay in their homes without paying anything is irresponsible. he actually is advising to screw somebody over so that you personally can get ahead. the only way we will make it out of this in this country is human decency, working together, and trust. why do you think the mennonite society is so successful? they honor their contracts and their word is their bond.
the only part that i question on housing is that maybe some of the banks should need to renegotiate the interest since they were more business savvy and played with the interest rates (although the bailout freed them from any responsibilities whatsoever), but that does not mean that those homeowners should be rewarded for their poor business sense either. people don't have the right to stay in a bigger home than they can afford just because they want to!

i really don't get this human decency rubbish. the mortgage contract is between 2 parties. both parties accept the risks and rewards of their actions. the banks loan out, in most cases, the govt's/fed's money at a profit. in doing so it accepts the risk that the borrower might find himself in a position to default. in defaulting, the bank knows that the borrower is within his rights to file for bankruptcy. likewise, the borrower knows what punishment default comes with. if i was in a position where the pain involved in handing over the keys was less than the pain involved in trying to hold on, i'd walk without one iota of guilt.

the banks will always do what's best for themselves regardless of the consequences for their clients. people should follow their lead

[Thatguywho]

#1- article said 'assuming you are having problems paying' and are heading towards financial ruin.

#2 leading economists see no reason for you to stay in a property that is worth 4 times less than you bought it for and are advising walking away from it. (at least now they are)

#3 Until the full foreclosure process is completed, you own the home. You own the home. You are allowed to stay in it. Leaving it leaves an empty neighborhood, loses your leverage to fight the bank, can turn into a crack house, will eventually be gutted by robbers. That is horrible for your neighbors.

#4 The businesses that 'go out of business' knew it was happening and they milked their shareholders, staff, consumers for as much as they could and then one day 'poof' gone. Staying in your home is legal, what they do is a tragic crimanlly negligent thing that affects 1,000s and puts people out of work, and loses their retirements.

#5 You can fight your foreclosure. Many are now in court winning. Yes, winning. Why? Because the papers have been flipped so much no one knows where the contracts are and no one can prove ownership over the note.

#6 To try to pay your bills and become destitute is not smart or honorable. It is a failure on your part to take care of your family. To deride someone to pay bills they cannot and end up not feeding their family shows utter lack of intelligence and the drinking of too much kool-aid.

#7 I think that the ones who doth protest too loudly never even read the article, but instead took 'talking points' and do not know what they are talking about.

Good thing you are behind the auto bailout so after they get the money at least 50% of those people will be laid off anyway next year (without their benefits)

But, that is okay to you...since you think that is okay and caused by the guy staying in his legally owned home and riding out the foreclosure.

#8 Your credit cards are Usury. That means 'loan sharks'. Illegal in most states except a very scant few. Burn them. They are unsecured and they are loan sharks. 'one-eyed vinnie' cannot come and break your legs (until congress bails them out). We need to force new regulation on that industry and the only way is to strike back. Burn the cards, do not pay, force contrition on them.

#9 lowering or negotiating interest rates will not help. THe homes are overpriced BECAUSE of the lenders. Even now people are dumb enough to buy homes that are still 2 or 3 times higher than they should be. And the lenders still let it happen. The only negotiation should be on the overall amount of the mortgage and a stable fixed rate. WIthout lowering what is owed, it is worthless to negotiate.


/rant off

[58robbo]

#1- article said 'assuming you are having problems paying' and are heading towards financial ruin.

#2 leading economists see no reason for you to stay in a property that is worth 4 times less than you bought it for and are advising walking away from it. (at least now they are)
sensible advice!

#3 Until the full foreclosure process is completed, you own the home. You own the home. You are allowed to stay in it. Leaving it leaves an empty neighborhood, loses your leverage to fight the bank, can turn into a crack house, will eventually be gutted by robbers. That is horrible for your neighbors.
the banks flush with treasury money don't have to liquidate to the highest bidder like they would be forced to do if uncle paulson hadn't come to the rescue. funny they don't seem to care if the grass is overgrown, if it turns into a crack house. they're happy to see it rot away while people are becoming homeless

#4 The businesses that 'go out of business' knew it was happening and they milked their shareholders, staff, consumers for as much as they could and then one day 'poof' gone. Staying in your home is legal, what they do is a tragic crimanlly negligent thing that affects 1,000s and puts people out of work, and loses their retirements.

#5 You can fight your foreclosure. Many are now in court winning. Yes, winning. Why? Because the papers have been flipped so much no one knows where the contracts are and no one can prove ownership over the note.

#6 To try to pay your bills and become destitute is not smart or honorable. It is a failure on your part to take care of your family. To deride someone to pay bills they cannot and end up not feeding their family shows utter lack of intelligence and the drinking of too much kool-aid.

#7 I think that the ones who doth protest too loudly never even read the article, but instead took 'talking points' and do not know what they are talking about.

exactly, they definitely didn't read the article

Good thing you are behind the auto bailout so after they get the money at least 50% of those people will be laid off anyway next year (without their benefits)

i'm assuming you're referring to floridasandy. i definitely don't support any bailouts

But, that is okay to you...since you think that is okay and caused by the guy staying in his legally owned home and riding out the foreclosure.

#8 Your credit cards are Usury. That means 'loan sharks'. Illegal in most states except a very scant few. Burn them. They are unsecured and they are loan sharks. 'one-eyed vinnie' cannot come and break your legs (until congress bails them out). We need to force new regulation on that industry and the only way is to strike back. Burn the cards, do not pay, force contrition on them.

i disagree with you here. i think banks were reckless in their lending but consumers were also reckless in their borrowing. both parties should feel the pinch. banks should lose the money and borrowers should lose their assets. i also don't agree with regulation. lenders must qualify their clients and borrowers must live within their means. both should suffer the consequences.

#9 lowering or negotiating interest rates will not help. THe homes are overpriced BECAUSE of the lenders. Even now people are dumb enough to buy homes that are still 2 or 3 times higher than they should be. And the lenders still let it happen. The only negotiation should be on the overall amount of the mortgage and a stable fixed rate. WIthout lowering what is owed, it is worthless to negotiate.


it's also politicians here who encouraged banks to be reckless so as to stimulate the economy. the implicit guarantees made by the govt removed the risk and made it a no-brainer for the banks.

[cpg35223]

Having had four different people call me this morning in desperate straits, I'd like to add my two cents on this:

1) Never, ever, stop networking or trying to get new business. When my business started slumping back last winter, I said, "Uh oh," and started dialing for dollars. So this week, I'm scrambling to get all my work done for several new clients while those who didn't see the handwriting on the wall just have been blindsided.

2) Don't spend money. My wife and I haven't spent much discretionary since January. Heck, we knew there would be a reckoning in 2006 when we bought our house, and bought way under what the mortgage company said we could borrow. I call it the Big Screen TV effect. 100% of people who buy one don't need one, and 90% really can't afford it.

3) If you're keeping up with the Joneses, you might be following them over a cliff. We're in a prosperous neighborhood with a lot of trust fund babies. Our house is one of the smallest on our street. Lately, however, the For Sale signs have been sprouting in yards--all because they couldn't afford to make the mortgage payments, because their trust funds aren't paying the dividends that they did a few years back. So the next time a friend or relative pulls into your driveway with the new car, or takes a great vacation, or buys a lake house, ask yourself, "How are they paying for it?" If you don't have a ready answer, then you know they're probably overstretched.

[Thatguywho]

Originally Posted by 58robbo

#8 Your credit cards are Usury. That means 'loan sharks'. Illegal in most states except a very scant few. Burn them. They are unsecured and they are loan sharks. 'one-eyed vinnie' cannot come and break your legs (until congress bails them out). We need to force new regulation on that industry and the only way is to strike back. Burn the cards, do not pay, force contrition on them.

i disagree with you here. i think banks were reckless in their lending but consumers were also reckless in their borrowing. both parties should feel the pinch. banks should lose the money and borrowers should lose their assets. i also don't agree with regulation. lenders must qualify their clients and borrowers must live within their means. both should suffer the consequences.

my problem with the credit cards revolve around many issues.
1- one sided contracts. For just about any reason under the sun they can change your 4% rate to 29%. For any reason. That is not anything but criminal, unjust, unfair. Late with your house payment, boom, 20% hike on your credit card.

what they do with poor people is atrocious. We are in a credit monetary system, it drives prices to where you have to use credit to buy things. Then thye soak people for cash.

If you have a few credit cards, lets say 20,000 in debt at 5% and a house, and a car payment.
You have one problem, one month, with your house payment, 30 days late but you caught up. It goes on your report.

You can afford your payments on the cards at 5%...but because of the late house payment all of the cars (lets say you have 4) now juice you, in one month, up to 25 to 31% interest.

That is 6 times your normal amount.

This is called forcing you into bankruptcy. A one sided contract that is only legal in a few states.

We have to fight that. If our system is to be run on credit as a form of monetary trading....then this type of credit control is wrong.

Imagine if your house or car payment could jump from 5% to 30%... without anything you can do about it. Would you call that fair?

This needs to be fought and changed. Our politicians allowed it to happen. I call that selling us out.

The more you offer 'free credit' the higher prices of things go up. Be it TVs, cars, or houses.

It just burns my butt that they do nothing about it except blame us. If it is so 'good' what they do, why is that type of lending outlawed in 47 states?

I smell a rat on the hill...maybe 500 of them.

we have the leverage if we all fight it...one at a time and they will always win.

[floridasandy]

i agree with a lot of what cpg said.
i have paid every debt that i have ever owed and i feel sad that i am going to be living in a country where people advocate only looking out for themselves, as if they lived in a vacuum! i would rather live with an empty house next door and i will mow their lawn than have a deadbeat mentality living next to me not paying anything. besides, the fact that this is completely unfair to the people who pay their bills! where is our motivation to work if the people next door live there but don't have to work or pay? the bailouts were bad, i agree. i would like to know how you think you own something if you have not paid for it! if i leave a deposit on something that does not mean i own it then.
the only part i agree with is walking away if you can't afford something and giving back the keys as soon as you realize that you can't afford something. a lot of these loans were 0 down so they are not damaged to any great degree by walking away and the banks get the house and then it is their problem. i see that as somewhat more reasonable but to advocate staying in a home and not paying at all or running up charge cards well that is sad. as far as #9 why are people still doing that with all the information out there? is it because they think they are going to get something for nothing now? if you think paying your bills is not honorable instead of feeding a family, why would you run them up in the first place? ( if it is not a medical issue).
the only people in this country that i see any excuse for being in debt where allowances should be made is for people who have medical emergency payments that were unforeseen and unpreventable. the rest is just nonsense. otherwise if they want a big screen television, then pay for it no matter what "even if your family is starving" because you made a promise.

[trishguard]

Originally Posted by floridasandy

i agree with a lot of what cpg said.
i have paid every debt that i have ever owed and i feel sad that i am going to be living in a country where people advocate only looking out for themselves, as if they lived in a vacuum! i would rather live with an empty house next door and i will mow their lawn than have a deadbeat mentality living next to me not paying anything. besides, the fact that this is completely unfair to the people who pay their bills! where is our motivation to work if the people next door live there but don't have to work or pay? the bailouts were bad, i agree. i would like to know how you think you own something if you have not paid for it! if i leave a deposit on something that does not mean i own it then.
the only part i agree with is walking away if you can't afford something and giving back the keys as soon as you realize that you can't afford something. a lot of these loans were 0 down so they are not damaged to any great degree by walking away and the banks get the house and then it is their problem. i see that as somewhat more reasonable but to advocate staying in a home and not paying at all or running up charge cards well that is sad. as far as #9 why are people still doing that with all the information out there? is it because they think they are going to get something for nothing now? if you think paying your bills is not honorable instead of feeding a family, why would you run them up in the first place? ( if it is not a medical issue).
the only people in this country that i see any excuse for being in debt where allowances should be made is for people who have medical emergency payments that were unforeseen and unpreventable. the rest is just nonsense. otherwise if they want a big screen television, then pay for it no matter what "even if your family is starving" because you made a promise.

I would never compound one error (buying something I couldn't afford) by making another (letting my loved ones starve). That's insanity.

[70Ford]

Was looting during Katrina immoral?
Of course it was. Those people should've just left before it hit. How dare they steal!
Of course it wasn't, you have to do whatever you have to do, to keep your baby from dying!

/perspective. If you change it, it may change you.