Before Bailout GM, Ford and Chrysler should have a controlled bankruptcy! (credit, buy)

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by jimj

I had heard a report that the unions are demanding quite a big share of any bailout money given to GM or Ford be given to THEM. According to the report they said they deserve part of the profits from the automakers. Hmmm, I thought these workers were PAID to be there not partners in the company...
Back to your main question, I don't think they should get a dime if the unions don't share the pain as well. I'd think they'd be happier to have a reduced benefit job than full benefits unemployed!

Unions already said they are not budging any more..no more concessions.
They said "fix the economy" as the solution.

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by Dexterguy

It's obvious that your entire family is not supported by GM pension checks, and that's IT!! No other income!

If you worked for the big three for 38 years on the assembly line and now have sevre arthrits from it in your hands, YOU DESERVE YOUR PENSION CHECK EVERY MONTH!! To take away pension checks from the current retirees would be an absolute disaster.

Yes and if they declare bankruptcy then pensions go to the PBGC just like the airlines.

The pensions just don't disappear. If the big three need money from the taxpayers then concessions need to be made from ALL INVOLVED, including retired workers if they want to continue receiving pensions from their former employer.

Disaster or not, this is a corporation, not a government. The government does not OWE them a bailout.

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by Dexterguy

It's obvious that your entire family is not supported by GM pension checks, and that's IT!! No other income!

If you worked for the big three for 38 years on the assembly line and now have sevre arthrits from it in your hands, YOU DESERVE YOUR PENSION CHECK EVERY MONTH!! To take away pension checks from the current retirees would be an absolute disaster.

Don't be yelling at the taxpayer for what you deserve..go yell at GM. They own your pension, not us. Go yell at the UAW for not yielding to this economy, not at the taxpayer.

[Stephan_K]

Originally Posted by HappyTexan

Don't be yelling at the taxpayer for what you deserve..go yell at GM. They own your pension, not us. Go yell at the UAW for not yielding to this economy, not at the taxpayer.

Dude... if US auto goes into bankrupt, the PBGC will takes over their pensions and benefit plans right ?! Yep, I thought so.

Maybe I'm stupid or something but I need some help with these few question. Maybe EVERYONE who thinks US auto should go into bankruptcy should throw in some simple answers to these few questions. And there is NO SHORTAGE in this forum of people who think they should just file bk !!! Should have all kinds of answers...

Who funds the PBGC ? (And I mean who REALLY funds it)

How much MORE funding will the PBGC need to shell out each year for pensions and benefits if US auto goes into bk?

How are these funds going to be made up and kept up ?

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by Stephan_K

Dude... if US auto goes into bankrupt, the PBGC will takes over their pensions and benefit plans right ?! Yep, I thought so.

Maybe I'm stupid or something but I need some help with these few question. Maybe EVERYONE who thinks US auto should go into bankruptcy should throw in some simple answers to these few questions. And there is NO SHORTAGE in this forum of people who think they should just file bk !!! Should have all kinds of answers...

Who funds the PBGC ? (And I mean who REALLY funds it)

How much MORE funding will the PBGC need to shell out each year for pensions and benefits if US auto goes into bk?

How are these funds going to be made up and kept up ?

So how did you answer those questions when the airlines went bankrupt and those pensions went to the PBGC ?

No one industry should be favored over another.

[jdrtx]

Stop puting the CEO's down. Nardelli said he would work for a dollar a year(after he decimated Home Depot and took two hundred million) and the Ford guy said no thank you and GM guy said I already gave at the office. Come on people, they flew those cheap G4's and not the more expensive G5. What else should a CEO do? (Sarcasm)

[goldengrain]

Remember Iococca and Chrystler? He thought the management, as he found them, were totally inept, but it would cost him more to fire them in golden parachuetes, etc, so he kept them on and hired an entire second level of functional management who knew what they were doing.

Did anyone remember DeLorean's book when, in spite of his successes in the company, GM managers refused to listen to him about building smaller cars. Even without the higher profit per car, the smaller ones were the way of the future. But they would not listen.

These companies had more than enough chances to compete and they always decided on the easy way out.

I hope they go Chapter 11 and I hope the reorg will include getting rid of them, but first stripping them of any perks they would get in thier departure.
Unions and pensions, everything should be scrutinized.
Unfortunately, US labor is now competing with third world coutries.
Either US auto companies compete and save some jobs or they do not compete and everyone gets the boot. Those are the choices. Nobody is anti union. Unions build the middle class. The middle class built America.
Times have changed. I wish they hadn't, but that's just the way things are. No sense hating and calling people union bashers or classist because they want to take a serious look at management. That will not change the reality that our companies can no longer compete. Calling names does not save anyone's job.
Do you want to point fingers?
Who pushed Nafta through?
Who is pushing for interlocking and interdependent businesses around the world?
Who allowed companies to move overseas with no adequate training for those they left jobless in the US?
Corporations have no loyalty to this country or its people.
Our government has been bought by these creeps, even to the tune of removing restrictions like Glass Steagall and causing our current economic woes. Glass Steagall had been put into effect during the Great Depression to guarantee that there would never be another.
Face it, we will turn into the Latin American model: many peasants and a small wealthy ruling elite.
This seems to be happening the world over.
Our democracy has been purchased out from under us.

[jdrtx]

The big Three exec's should do it the old fashion way. Like John Deloren did back in the day with a huge coke deal.

[jimmyP]

jeepowner, I am not anti-union at all. I have long believed that the management at GM deserves the lion's share of the blame for today's situation. However, unions were great beneficiaries of many of management's bad decisions. Things like job banks, totally free health care, and non productive work rules have left GM unable to compete in the modern reality of today's world. I don't like it either. We are competing with countries who have no work standards, abusive human rights policies, and dirt cheap wages. But whether we like it or not, it's the reality of today's world. A controlled DIP bankruptcy is the only way to save GM. There isn't a viable alternative that I have seen. Some type of pay for performance productivity pay for workers (including management) and profit sharing is the way to preserve your future. It can work and has worked.

All the union haters have forgotten that unions have done a lot to elevate the middle class in America and our way of life. However, this is a critical situation in a different time and different world and critical measures are required with a great deal of sacrifice by everyone.

You are correct that the management of these companies has been terrible. I was a supplier to the big 3 for many years in my own business and later as president of another supplier. The tactics deployed by the big 3 versus what we found with our loyal japanese customers were very telling in their attitudes towards seriously addressing problems.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, but the water needs serious cleansing.

[jimmyP]

And I would add to the above that every company that competes with the big 3 from every country is supported by their respective governments. Good or bad, this is the competition. This discussion would never even take place in Japan or Germany if the big players were in trouble.