GM bailout poll, yes or no? (Sears, wage, 401k, job)

[roncorey1]

Originally Posted by Stephan_K

Let me ask you this, if you continued to have kids every year of your life for 50 years and at the same time have to support ALL of them for their whole life would you go bankrupt ? Eventually yes without a doubt... And if all of the sudden your income stopped due to economic reasons, then what ????

If all the rest of the world auto makers had to deal with the UAW and all the bullsh*t money sucking ways then yes ALL of them would be in very similar situations. Supporting a half million people and their families with checks and benefits puts an aweful lot of financial pressure on the manufacturing cost process when the rest of the world doesn't have to worry about it ! No arguing that...

Unions are not a scapegoat for a larger problem they are a big part of the larger problem ! I come from a family of union workers all around and I don't agree with union ways and needless to say not to many of my family union members do either any more. They see the writing on the wall !

The UAW and other unions all over the country have been making more and more concessions for the past several years!

The best job I ever had was at a union represented plant. In N. Carolina which is 49th in union representation! I was covered under the union contract even if I didn't join. I was making $6/hr LESS than my most recent non-union job, but I was treated with respect and the advancement opportunites were much better.

Working people are always asked to tighten up in tough economic times. I can see wage and hiring freezes, but if you agree to big pay cuts, then chances are when times are better you won't see the wages come back.

[HappyTexan]

I'm starting to think that this is not an automaker bailout but a union bailout.

Toyota and Honda have been doing business in the US for years and are not hurting as much.

As far as illegals..heck they are in all industries so the automakers shouldn't feel "special".
Most of them are going home though due to no $$$ or jobs here in the US.

[Stephan_K]

Originally Posted by roncorey1

Chew on this:
UAW wages - GLG News

and this:
Wages and labor costs - UAW Bargaining 2007

and this:
That was easy: UAW and GM agree on lower wages after six months of bargaining - Autoblog

And last I looked, the Mexican non-union built Escalade EXT and Avalanche sticker prices were just as expensive as their U.S. union made counterparts!! And how come the Acuras, Lexuses, and Infinitis that are mostly just tricked- out and rebadged Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans cost so darn much!
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

That may be some stats for wages only... but what about the benefits, 401K contributions, vacation pay and time allotted, pensions and benefits that are NOT being accounted for ??? Wages are just a small part of the overall equation.

And the biggest part of it to me that you WON'T hear about is how much actual work is required by a union auto worker for an 8 hour day ! Doesn't even come close to what the rest of the world perceives as an 8 hour work day for MANY of them. Do you want to open that can of worms for discussion ? This cost is ENORMOUS !

[f_m]

Whether you're union or not, pensions and healthcare coverage after retirement are huge expenses. Large companies like IBM and HP have shifted out of doing pensions and to 401k because they know the expenses are not sustainable.

Being able to sustain retiree plans requires profit to increase year after year, since the number of retired increases. I don't know many companies that are capable of doing that. This is no different than the issue with social security, which is supposedly going to run out of money in a few decades, because more are taking out faster than money is being put in.

[HappyTexan]

Now this is just plain arrogance:

UAW leader says no more concessions - Yahoo! News

"Even as Detroit's Big Three teeter on collapse, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger said Saturday that workers will not make any more concessions and that getting the automakers back on their feet means figuring out a way to turn around the slumping economy.

The Center for Automotive Research, which receives funding from the auto industry, has warned that the collapse of the Big Three could set off a catastrophic chain reaction in the economy, eliminating up to 3 million jobs and more than $150 billion in tax revenue over the next three years."

Now they go on to infer that if the big three go under no one will buy cars/trucks.
Sorry..but the "big three" is not the entire industry.

[Stephan_K]

Originally Posted by roncorey1

The UAW and other unions all over the country have been making more and more concessions for the past several years

Maybe so but the damage has already been done over the years of compounding union demands. Todays problems are in part to what happened 20 years ago, not last year. Any concessions today affects things years from now more so that today or even tomorrow. The evil has to stop or become proportionate with the rest of the world at some point. The "we're special" attitudes of unions and union workers has to stop at some point. It will one way or another eventually that's for sure !

[drjones96]

Originally Posted by HappyTexan

Now this is just plain arrogance:

UAW leader says no more concessions - Yahoo! News

"Even as Detroit's Big Three teeter on collapse, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger said Saturday that workers will not make any more concessions and that getting the automakers back on their feet means figuring out a way to turn around the slumping economy.

The Center for Automotive Research, which receives funding from the auto industry, has warned that the collapse of the Big Three could set off a catastrophic chain reaction in the economy, eliminating up to 3 million jobs and more than $150 billion in tax revenue over the next three years."

Now they go on to infer that if the big three go under no one will buy cars/trucks.
Sorry..but the "big three" is not the entire industry.

Amazing. Catastrophic meltdown is staring them dead in the face and they're not even blinking.

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by drjones96

Amazing. Catastrophic meltdown is staring them dead in the face and they're not even blinking.

Yeah..basically they are saying "fix the world cause we're not budging".

[jimj]

Originally Posted by HappyTexan

Yeah..basically they are saying "fix the world cause we're not budging".

That's fine, they said that to Delta Air as well, then Delta told 'em ok you have a choice concessions or nothing 'cause we'll go BK and it'll all be over for you then.

[smellykat]

Originally Posted by Stephan_K

Maybe so but the damage has already been done over the years of compounding union demands. Todays problems are in part to what happened 20 years ago, not last year. Any concessions today affects things years from now more so that today or even tomorrow. The evil has to stop or become proportionate with the rest of the world at some point. The "we're special" attitudes of unions and union workers has to stop at some point. It will one way or another eventually that's for sure !

Stephen - Can you back up with facts your statement that union workers have a "we're special" attitude? Can you back up with facts that union workers do not actually work an 8 hour day? Remember, Stephen, I'm asking for facts not heresay. If you can reply with facts, please do so. I am not interested in your personal comments. Be sure to quote your sources, and they must be from credible sources.