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The other thing I'd like to add, is that even foreign H1Bs are being let go at companies. At my old company, they let go a whole bunch of Indian contractors throughout the entire company to bring in new Indians directly from India. It was really weird. Every week, we'd see less of our colleagues on Friday. And on Monday we'd see all these new Indians coming in and starting. (The company was beginning an offshore model with a sole contracting company).
So these Indians who are trying to get a greencard in the States are now are competing w/ their own people who physically live in India. This leads to the conclusion that it doesn't have to do with Indians being smarter or more educated than Americans. It has to do with hiring cheap labor for the corporations bottom line.
People who need "to be taken care of" are destined to fail.
Wait a minute... aren't you the one who advocated the government taking over companies and using taxpayers money to pay for people's mortgage, utility bills, and stuff like that, especially those in foreclosure.... and something about rewarding normal behavior? Yet you want to take care of them and say something like that.... that is just plain confusing...
What? We perform surgery on rockets now? I know you meant rocket science. Or brain surgery.
"Rocket surgery" is a fairly common little joke combining the two.
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But, it's very necessary for the computer scientists to be trained as well as those disciplines. Computers affect EVERYTHING we do. If someone screwed up the code for your bank account, and all of a sudden, we can't get data for said account and now no money, I'm sure you'd be pissed. Or, if you're supposed to get morphine for pain while you're in the hospital but a hospital terminal misrepresents a code for morphine for that of insulin, causing you to go into insulin shock, and die, I'm sure your family would wonder why the person who wrote the program on that computer could makes such an awful mistake. Or, how about NASA looking for objects heading towards earth, seeing an asteroid coming at us saying we have 30 years to impact to prepare; we think we have all that time but we have, oh say, 9 years because the programmer didn't take into account the delays from his/her inefficient program OR that of the returning signal telling the program how far the asteroid was. Then, we're way behind making a preventive action plan because of it, and there goes mankind. It might not seem like rocket science or brain surgery, but it's fairly intricate, and is MORE than JUST coding. CS is supposed to be about understanding a larger system and how to manipulate/use it for productive purposes.
Again, I can say that I've seen the total opposite, but it doesn't mean anything. It's some subjective observation, possibly made by disgruntled ex-workers. Most of the foreign workers went to the same US universities that American workers did. Or IIT (which is pretty damn difficult... up there w/ MIT/Stanford/GT/CalTech for engineering/CS) Yet, somehow, the foreign workers are all-of-a-sudden not as great? I'm not buying it.
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You're missing the point entirely, which is not that one side or another is significantly better, but that during a time of accelerating unemployment we as a country have an obligation to prefer our own citizens.
It's one thing to hire more foreigners when the economy is expanding and companies honestly can't hire enough in a certain field, which is how my father got into this country. It's another entirely to lay off American citizens during hard times to get more foreign help, and then pretend that they're smarter or harder working to justify that.
Our economy is crashing. Microsoft was giving many of its programmers the heave-ho just because of lower profits ...... and while they did that with one hand, they were applying political pressure with the other to allow more H1bs.
Huh. I wonder why they did that. I guess the US citizens they laid off were just too dumb to do the job, right?
Wait a minute... aren't you the one who advocated the government taking over companies and using taxpayers money to pay for people's mortgage, utility bills, and stuff like that, especially those in foreclosure.... and something about rewarding normal behavior? Yet you want to take care of them and say something like that.... that is just plain confusing...
I said if we're going to pursue socialism like we seem intent on doing, then it would make sense for all involved to have a system that kept people in houses in order to protect the interests of the banks that we seem intent on bailing out (empty, rotting houses do banks no good) and the neighbors who do pay their bills. Let the government take title of the house until the mortgage is paid off, institute public indentured servitude for mortgage delinquents if that's what it takes, but keep people in houses - not to protect them per se but the rest of society.
At any rate, my comment that you're quoting was in response to the ridiculous notion that Americans are these pour souls who somehow need to be "protected" from evil foreigners who come and "steal" our jobs. If that's the mindset people have, then failure vis a vis other countries is inevitable.
I agree with the poster that any foreigner with a high IQ should be encouraged to move here. Any foreigner that has a viable plan to establish a business here should be allowed to settle here with no virtually no questions asked. Encouraging massive immigration of talented and skilled people through tax and other incentives is what we should be doing right now. It will only make us more competitive once the downturn ends.
I graduated knowing jack from my CS degree. I had a horrible time looking for a job as I graduated right after the dotcom bust. Yet all these indians were coming from abroad making more than I was. Why? Because they lied on their resume and have a great support system. They help each by moving heaven and earth. We don't do that.
In my team at my old company, we all became very close friends. There was 7 other people on the team. ALL SEVEN LIED on their resumes. 6 of them said they had 5 years of experience when they started out, when they really had ZERO years.
It took me 6 years to get to a level of work they were doing because I was stupid and told the truth on my resume. And I ONLY got the job because my husband was working there and the manager LOVED him so she hired me as well.
OK, so you know jack after graduating your CS, and got a job only because your husband worked there, so what makes you better than anyone else even if they lied on their resume?
BTW, its impossible for a person with Zero experience to convince anyone that they have Five years of experience.
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It's an IT job. The thing is they don't need to know how to perform the task from Day One, because Day One they meet another Indian who speaks their language and that guy will actually DO the work for him AND teach him the ropes. Give him the answers, how to write emails, give him passwords, etc.
So doesnt this make the teaching guy look unproductive since he is spending his time teaching instead of working?
Any company can figure out if this really happens.
And since you knew jack after your CS and you ONLY got the job because your husband was working there and the manager LOVED him so she hired you as well, how can anyone believe you knew how to perform from Day One?
OK, so you know jack after graduating your CS, and got a job only because your husband worked there, so what makes you better than anyone else even if they lied on their resume?
I'm not saying I'm better than anyone. But I was responding to people who are saying Indians on H1Bs are better than us and know more than Americans which is not true.
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BTW, its impossible for a person with Zero experience to convince anyone that they have Five years of experience.
Maybe it is, but all 7 of the people I was working with lied on their resumes and said they had 5 years when they had zero. So then the conclusion is management of companies don't care they are lying.
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And since you knew jack after your CS and you ONLY got the job because your husband was working there and the manager LOVED him so she hired you as well, how can anyone believe you knew how to perform from Day One?
Good point, I got hired only because of who I knew which is a reality of the world. I would do the same thing. I would hire my friends or people I know if I had my own company. But I guess what upsets me is they are lying on their resume and from my perspective seems to be the only reason they are getting the jobs over other candidates.
If you have to candidates who graduated from college in 2009, same day and time, same GPA, but one decided to lie on their resume and put 5 years experience, then the one who lied gets the interview. The one who actually told the truth doesn't even get a call back or a chance.
Maybe it is, but all 7 of the people I was working with lied on their resumes and said they had 5 years when they had zero. So then the conclusion is management of companies don't care they are lying.
So how do these companies get the work done?
What do they deliver to their clients?
If all of your team was incompetent, how come it didnt get scratched off?
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Good point, I got hired only because of who I knew which is a reality of the world. I would do the same thing. I would hire my friends or people I know if I had my own company. But I guess what upsets me is they are lying on their resume and from my perspective seems to be the only reason they are getting the jobs over other candidates.
Reality of the world?
Agreed they are lying on their resume, but consider this...
A well qualified experienced American applies for a job but doesnt get it because YOU get hired just because you "know someone". Well done.
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I would do the same thing. I would hire my friends or people I know if I had my own company.
First you complain that you have a problem with these Indians on H1B being helped by their friends, and now you say you will do the same thing. Double standards?
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If you have to candidates who graduated from college in 2009, same day and time, same GPA, but one decided to lie on their resume and put 5 years experience, then the one who lied gets the interview. The one who actually told the truth doesn't even get a call back or a chance.
Really?
I have never had to lie on my resume, my first job right after I finished my engineering paid peanuts, but after that I have always found better paying jobs in my field. (I have about 10 years of experience now and this is my 4th job)
Sure there were a lot of rejections, but if you know your stuff and there are openings, there is no problem in finding a job.
Looks like in your opinion, getting a job based on knowing someone in the company is perfectly ethical and fair and thats the way it should be.
In that case, why would anyone bother studying at all?
And BTW, are you against H1B or against Indians or against Indians on H1B or all of the above?
Whoa, good time to introduce the race card into your arguments, DDevil! I'll bet she hates people from India ....... why she must be a RACIST!
Calling someone a "racist" seems to be the best way of settling an argument nowadays. Yeah, she spends all her time working against the hiring of those Indians who are so obviously more qualified than lazy American programmers, and that's because she is prejudiced against them. She really hates curried food.
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Welcome to City-Data.com forum! Make sure to register - it's free and very quick! You have to register before you can post and participate in our discussions with 700,000 other registered members. User profiles and some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your free account you will be able to customize many options, you will have the full access to over 15,000 posts/day about local topics and you will see fewer ads. 
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