News, Biggest medical mystery: The bill. (small business, free market, tax, cost)

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by chuck22b

If costs of healthcare was lower before insurers... then what's really so bad about socialized or single payer healthcare?

-chuck22b

Could be the profession will no longer attract the some of the top talent?

[stan4]

Originally Posted by chuck22b

Basically, insurers like your premiums and would like you to keep on paying them for nothing. If something comes up that is actually drastic, they will find a reason why not to cover you.

So, what really? Are insurers covering? Nada. It's pretty much a scam from what I can tell.

-chuck22b

Um, I have had private insurance my whole life, and I don't recall them ever denying a claim. I've had surgeries, outpatient procedures, specialist visits, and yearly primary care. So I don't know what this 'denying all your claims' business is about.

[chuck22b]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

Could be the profession will no longer attract the some of the top talent?

Really, though? The pay for doctors, nurses, and the actual "productive" workers will still be competitive. Salaries are based on market price... supply and demand for Doctors, nurses, etc.

If there are fewer doctors, but demand is still high, the market still determines wages and the level of "talent" needed. There still can be that "super" surgeon that is the only one that can perform so and so operation... and he/she will be compensated accordingly. The thing is, is instead of more going to administration, he/she will actually get the greater share. Award productivity... not bureaucracy.

In fact, according to a study by University of Indiana, Doctors Prefer a single payer/universal health care:
http://www.reuters.com/article/healt...43203520080331

The problem is the administrative parts are costing more than the "productive" part and it's not because of competition but more because of bureaucracy, multiple standards, regulations, that has increased inefficiencies.

-chuck22b

[chuck22b]

Originally Posted by stan4

Um, I have had private insurance my whole life, and I don't recall them ever denying a claim. I've had surgeries, outpatient procedures, specialist visits, and yearly primary care. So I don't know what this 'denying all your claims' business is about.

Everybody has had their own experiences. My wife was denied coverage from Kaiser because she had asthma or some sort of ear infection.... so we had to go to another company.

Funny though, now that the economy is sucking, even affecting health care providers, we tried applying for Kaiser again, and she was accepted.

Go figure. It's a money driven business. Covering when it's convenient, denying when it's convenient. Is that how health care should be ran?

-chuck22b

[davidt1]

No, that's not how health care should be run. Health care should be non-profit. Think about it. All the organizations that help people such as the Red cross, Peace corp, United Way, Salvation Army, etc. are non-profit. Health care is about helping people too, is it not?

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by chuck22b

Really, though? The pay for doctors, nurses, and the actual "productive" workers will still be competitive. Salaries are based on market price... supply and demand for Doctors, nurses, etc.

If there are fewer doctors, but demand is still high, the market still determines wages and the level of "talent" needed. There still can be that "super" surgeon that is the only one that can perform so and so operation... and he/she will be compensated accordingly. The thing is, is instead of more going to administration, he/she will actually get the greater share. Award productivity... not bureaucracy.

In fact, according to a study by University of Indiana, Doctors Prefer a single payer/universal health care:
Doctors support universal health care: survey | Health | Reuters

The problem is the administrative parts are costing more than the "productive" part and it's not because of competition but more because of bureaucracy, multiple standards, regulations, that has increased inefficiencies.

-chuck22b

I personally know 3 doctors that are now working as OR Nurses... They get paid for the hours they work... they are no longer responsible for an office or personnel, they can schedule time off and when it's all said and done... they take home more money and they no longer have to pay high premium malpractice insurance... all the Docs I'm referring to work in the SF Bay Area where the City of SF was advertising new grad RN's starting pay of 100k...

Doctors that like Single Payer can try to get into HMO like California based Kaiser Hospital... although it's not automatic... Kaiser not contract to individual practitioners on some things because they can avoid the employee/employer relationship this way...

Almost none of the Docs I work with now encourage their children to follow in their footsteps... this is markedly different from as short as 20 years ago...

Makes one wonder... many of the new Docs are also foreign born... some said they really didn't have a choice because the decision was made for them...

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by davidt1

No, that's not how health care should be run. Health care should be non-profit. Think about it. All the organizations that help people such as the Red cross, Peace corp, United Way, Salvation Army, etc. are non-profit. Health care is about helping people too, is it not?

Interesting notion... "Non Profit" Health Care is often just a Business Model because it provides advantages competing against for profit entities...

My neighbor is on the Board of Directors of a large CA non-profit Hospital and it's verbatim as he explained it.

Salvation Army and other similar organizations are what I call true non-profits because many of those involved only get expenses or subsistence wages... some of the Catholic Charity Hospitals are run this way...

[chuck22b]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

I personally know 3 doctors that are now working as OR Nurses... They get paid for the hours they work... they are no longer responsible for an office or personnel, they can schedule time off and when it's all said and done... they take home more money and they no longer have to pay high premium malpractice insurance... all the Docs I'm referring to work in the SF Bay Area where the City of SF was advertising new grad RN's starting pay of 100k...

Doctors that like Single Payer can try to get into HMO like California based Kaiser Hospital... although it's not automatic... Kaiser not contract to individual practitioners on some things because they can avoid the employee/employer relationship this way...

Almost none of the Docs I work with now encourage their children to follow in their footsteps... this is markedly different from as short as 20 years ago...

Makes one wonder... many of the new Docs are also foreign born... some said they really didn't have a choice because the decision was made for them...

Not sure from what you said if you agree or disagree, but it sounds like even with our current hodge podge of single payer/private insurer whatever insurers that being a doctor isn't rewarding.

Maybe we should all be lawyers

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by chuck22b

Not sure from what you said if you agree or disagree, but it sounds like even with our current hodge podge of single payer/private insurer whatever insurers that being a doctor isn't rewarding.

Maybe we should all be lawyers

I tend to ramble at times...

I think it's a double edge sword... Some of the best Doctors are not good at running a business and on the other side... Doctors are seeing more regulations... often taking health care decisions away from the physician... Doctoring isn't what it used to be.

[chuck22b]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

I tend to ramble at times...

I think it's a double edge sword... Some of the best Doctors are not good at running a business and on the other side... Doctors are seeing more regulations... often taking health care decisions away from the physician... Doctoring isn't what it used to be.

Np,
Sadly, nothing is as it used to be.... things change. You either adapt, try to change your environment, or get out and do something else.