How much should UAW worker make? (insurance, free market, wages, benefits)

[texdav]

Originally Posted by smellykat

You missed the point of my post. Are you aware that Goldman Sachs received a cut of the $365 billion (UPI) bank bailout bucks? In all fairness to Goldman Sachs, according to Reuthers, they plan to repay the funds due to a 1st quarter profit and their desire to get out from under the $500,000 cap placed on compensation by the Obama administration. Ranting over a $1 million dollar annual income seems more justified than ranting over a $60,000 annual income in my opinion.

Its how many times you have to multiply that 60,000 plus legacy cost trhat drives ti higher. Then you need to be able to fire that poerson also. bascially most executive pay makes good headlines but is a drop in the bucket compared to ocerall cost of labor totally.What it is good for is enraging the maddening crowds to avoid bigger issues in the country.If we have a revolution onhe day it will be the rethoric that politicans used that cause it.Like why are fannie Mae and mac giving the same bonuses when how in government hands for stated retention purposes.

[OC Investor2]

Originally Posted by smellykat

You missed the point of my post. Are you aware that Goldman Sachs received a cut of the $365 billion (UPI) bank bailout bucks? In all fairness to Goldman Sachs, according to Reuthers, they plan to repay the funds due to a 1st quarter profit and their desire to get out from under the $500,000 cap placed on compensation by the Obama administration. Ranting over a $1 million dollar annual income seems more justified than ranting over a $60,000 annual income in my opinion.

Goldman got TARP funds - taxpayer money - because they were failing due to flaws in their business model & too much leverage. Chrysler got tax payer money because they were failing in no small part due to the wages and benefits associated w/ UAW labor.

The salaries paid at Goldman will not drive weather they return MY tax dollars to the treasury. For Chrysler to emerge from Ch.11 and pay back MY tax dollars to the treasury they are going to have to get their labor costs in line with the competition.

So it may make me feel better to howl at the moon over sky high wall st. pay packages, but it isn't really relevant to the issue at hand. UAW wages at the automakers is.

[scarabchuck]

Originally Posted by texdav

Its how many times you have to multiply that 60,000 plus legacy cost trhat drives ti higher. Then you need to be able to fire that poerson also. bascially most executive pay makes good headlines but is a drop in the bucket compared to ocerall cost of labor totally.What it is good for is enraging the maddening crowds to avoid bigger issues in the country.If we have a revolution onhe day it will be the rethoric that politicans used that cause it.Like why are fannie Mae and mac giving the same bonuses when how in government hands for stated retention purposes.

I just can't figure out why people keep pointing the blame at one specific group. The labor to manufacture a vehicle is only 10% of the total cost (I tried to find the article that said this but couldn't) so how can 10% cause these issues (talking about the D3) ? Sure the UAW is hurting these companies more than helping them but they aren't the cause. Just the blame. The "job banks" for instance, EVERYONE called out the union on these. Well the companies where the ones that wanted it , not the union.
For the foriegn vehicles that aren't build here in the states their is no way we can compete with their labor costs. Most of the places abroad have nationalized health care for one, so you can erase that cost right out of the equation. Personally I think middle managment and upper managment should get more of the blame than the "worker bee's". "A generation ago, top CEOs made 30 to 40 times the pay of average workers. Last year, CEO pay outpaced average worker pay by 344 times. "
(Workers Need Added Clout To Close The Pay Gap with CEOs | CommonDreams.org) But this does not seem to bother anyone. It's the UAW that caused it all, I don't think so. Look for instance at what the former CEO of Toyota made (he stepped down because he dishonored the company due to the $1.7B loss, doesn't seem to greedy to me) $900k (Executive Pay: what the bosses make) , what did Wagneer, Nardelli, etc etc make ? Hmmm...
Sure this isn't the sole problem either , but is sure contributes. Expecially when the D3 , even after all these cuts are still managment heavy. Where is the sacrifice there ? My unemployment is a direct result of what is going on with the D3 but after seeing that there has been hardly any "sacrifices" in the managment area of these companies it tells me that greed is still steering the ship. Let them fail. Hopefully they can restructure with a newer , leaner mentality.
There are many factors that caused the demise of these companies , but don't blame the workers at the bottom because they "make too much" , but the blame where it needs to be.. at managment (not just the D3 but many suppliers as well) and our own gov't policies.

[smellykat]

Originally Posted by OC Investor2

Goldman got TARP funds - taxpayer money - because they were failing due to flaws in their business model & too much leverage. Chrysler got tax payer money because they were failing in no small part due to the wages and benefits associated w/ UAW labor.

The salaries paid at Goldman will not drive weather they return MY tax dollars to the treasury. For Chrysler to emerge from Ch.11 and pay back MY tax dollars to the treasury they are going to have to get their labor costs in line with the competition.

So it may make me feel better to howl at the moon over sky high wall st. pay packages, but it isn't really relevant to the issue at hand. UAW wages at the automakers is.

My intention in posting information regarding highly compensated Goldman Sachs employees was only to draw a comparison in wages between banking investment employees and auto production workers. You state that UAW wages are the issue. I disagree with that statement. There are many components to the equation leading to the failure of the domestic auto industry. Due to poor spelling and lack of writing skills by some participants on this thread, I won't be revisiting it. It is just too difficult for me to decipher the posts to write my response.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by killer2021

Was watching a CNBC documentary about GM collapsing. One of the things they brought up was how much the workers make. $28/hr!!! with lots of decent benefits. After the UAW bought them out it was moved down to $14/hr.

So I ask everyone, what do you think is a fair wage to be paying these auto workers?

I say start them off as independent contractors making 10/hr no benefits. Supervisors make 12/hr with benefits. Managers and highly skilled workers make 15/hr with benefits.

Even at those rates, people will be lined up around the block to work. Also Detroit has very low cost of living so making 10/hr is good money! The work they do isn't even hard. I saw one guy who all he did was install shocks into the car all day long. That is how the assembly line works - everyone is specialized to do one specific thing. It would take what? An hour to train someone to do that?

Thoughts?

12/hr for a supervisor? 10/hr and pay your own payroll tax? McDonalds is more appealing.

[zoomzoom3]

$18/hr. to start sounds fair to me.

That's about the minimum living wage it takes to get by anywhere in America.

$10-$12 an hour is poverty.

[58robbo]

Originally Posted by zoomzoom3

$18/hr. to start sounds fair to me.

That's about the minimum living wage it takes to get by anywhere in America.

$10-$12 an hour is poverty.

the problem is that it's not up to you. chrysler will start manufacturing at some point and we'll all get an opportunity to vote with our dollars. if they make a quality product at a competitive price it will justify the workers salaries, their executive pay, their financial arrangements, their marketing strategy etc. if they still can't compete that will tell us that their product is too expensive. if that is the case then whatever they're paying their staff, execs, suppliers etc is too much and they'll have to lower it. if the wages get to the minimum wage threshold and chrysler still can't produce economically, they will have to close! workers and execs can then enjoy $0 ph and whoever invested their money in the business will lose their investment. so it is in everyones interest to make the business work. this is the way the market is supposed to work. government setting wages is a communist strategy

[58robbo]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

12/hr for a supervisor? 10/hr and pay your own payroll tax? McDonalds is more appealing.

first off, mcdonalds does not have infinite positions. second, macdonalds is still profitable if i'm not mistaken. the reason they are profitable is because the provide the right product at the right price and they have controlled their costs!

[zoomzoom3]

Originally Posted by 58robbo

the problem is that it's not up to you. chrysler will start manufacturing at some point and we'll all get an opportunity to vote with our dollars. if they make a quality product at a competitive price it will justify the workers salaries, their executive pay, their financial arrangements, their marketing strategy etc. if they still can't compete that will tell us that their product is too expensive. if that is the case then whatever they're paying their staff, execs, suppliers etc is too much and they'll have to lower it. if the wages get to the minimum wage threshold and chrysler still can't produce economically, they will have to close! workers and execs can then enjoy $0 ph and whoever invested their money in the business will lose their investment. so it is in everyones interest to make the business work. this is the way the market is supposed to work. government setting wages is a communist strategy

Well, I guess they could build them in Bangladesh & pay the assembly workers there 50 cents an hour.

[mpyne]

Originally Posted by scarabchuck

CEO pay outpaced average worker pay by 344 times. "
(Workers Need Added Clout To Close The Pay Gap with CEOs | CommonDreams.org) But this does not seem to bother anyone. It's the UAW that caused it all, I don't think so. Look for instance at what the former CEO of Toyota made (he stepped down because he dishonored the company due to the $1.7B loss, doesn't seem to greedy to me) $900k (Executive Pay: what the bosses make) , what did Wagneer, Nardelli, etc etc make ? Hmmm...

There are many factors that caused the demise of these companies , but don't blame the workers at the bottom because they "make too much" , but the blame where it needs to be.. at managment (not just the D3 but many suppliers as well) and our own gov't policies.

I always thought if the big 3 wanted to be successful again they shoulld fire management and hire managers from Japan. They feel like they have a stake in the company they run and have pride in their work.

Not sure if anyone heard about the CEO from Japan Airlines who cut his own salary and now makes less then the pilots.