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Many sour grapes posting on here. No one shouldn't complain about someone else salary. We all do a job that pays what it pays. Don't fault the employee for working at those wages and benefits. If you don't like it...join them or keep it moving with a closed mouth.
I personally blame management for the collapse. They agreed to the terms of the contract. They didn't have to pay the wages and bennies,but they did,because they were making money.
They could've built cars consumer wanted,but they didn't. The employees just punch the clock and did their jobs.
The UAW members could've have done more to help the company. I assuming the majority of the mesters thought otherwise.
People need to stop it with I have a degree and I don't make that. You chose to go that route. Why be envy of someone who is less educated making more money.
I just can't figure out why people keep pointing the blame at one specific group. The labor to manufacture a vehicle is only 10% of the total cost (I tried to find the article that said this but couldn't) so how can 10% cause these issues (talking about the D3) ? Sure the UAW is hurting these companies more than helping them but they aren't the cause. Just the blame. The "job banks" for instance, EVERYONE called out the union on these. Well the companies where the ones that wanted it , not the union.
For the foriegn vehicles that aren't build here in the states their is no way we can compete with their labor costs. Most of the places abroad have nationalized health care for one, so you can erase that cost right out of the equation. Personally I think middle managment and upper managment should get more of the blame than the "worker bee's". "A generation ago, top CEOs made 30 to 40 times the pay of average workers. Last year, CEO pay outpaced average worker pay by 344 times. "
(Workers Need Added Clout To Close The Pay Gap with CEOs | CommonDreams.org) But this does not seem to bother anyone. It's the UAW that caused it all, I don't think so. Look for instance at what the former CEO of Toyota made (he stepped down because he dishonored the company due to the $1.7B loss, doesn't seem to greedy to me) $900k (Executive Pay: what the bosses make) , what did Wagneer, Nardelli, etc etc make ? Hmmm...
Sure this isn't the sole problem either , but is sure contributes. Expecially when the D3 , even after all these cuts are still managment heavy. Where is the sacrifice there ? My unemployment is a direct result of what is going on with the D3 but after seeing that there has been hardly any "sacrifices" in the managment area of these companies it tells me that greed is still steering the ship. Let them fail. Hopefully they can restructure with a newer , leaner mentality.
There are many factors that caused the demise of these companies , but don't blame the workers at the bottom because they "make too much" , but the blame where it needs to be.. at managment (not just the D3 but many suppliers as well) and our own gov't policies.
"The labor to manufacture a vehicle is only 10% of the total cost."
That may be just for putting the parts together to form the car into what looks like a car. But in noway does it just cost just 10% labor to build a car from scratch!
"The labor to manufacture a vehicle is only 10% of the total cost."
That may be just for putting the parts together to form the car into what looks like a car. But in noway does it just cost just 10% labor to build a car from scratch!
I believe that is assy. cost, not E & D , tooling etc. And assy. cost is what people are bitching about , being that it's by overpaid UAW workers
Many sour grapes posting on here. No one shouldn't complain about someone else salary. We all do a job that pays what it pays. Don't fault the employee for working at those wages and benefits. If you don't like it...join them or keep it moving with a closed mouth.
I personally blame management for the collapse. They agreed to the terms of the contract. They didn't have to pay the wages and bennies,but they did,because they were making money.
They could've built cars consumer wanted,but they didn't. The employees just punch the clock and did their jobs.
The UAW members could've have done more to help the company. I assuming the majority of the mesters thought otherwise.
People need to stop it with I have a degree and I don't make that. You chose to go that route. Why be envy of someone who is less educated making more money.
You have the right to care when the money you pay in taxes goes towards these people. Ideologically, I'm pro-union in the sense that I believe workers have the right to unionize in order to insure fair pay, fair treatment, and safe working conditions(I realize that what exactly constitutes as being "fair" can be subjective); but many of these unions don't realize(or care for) their bounds.
You have the right to care when the money you pay in taxes goes towards these people. Ideologically, I'm pro-union in the sense that I believe workers have the right to unionize in order to insure fair pay, fair treatment, and safe working conditions(I realize that what exactly constitutes as being "fair" can be subjective); but many of these unions don't realize(or care for) their bounds.
The union isn't was it use to be. Yes they need to change their union agreement. I really don't care about the bail outs. The government is going to do what they think is best for the people. There isn't anything I can do, but call or write the elected officials to voice my concerns. The UAW got their selves into this mester mode and majority will not change. They suck the life out of the company. All and all GM management allowed them to keep taking and taking.
The way I see it,there are many UAW members who live their lives on a set income they receive. No one wants to take a concession. Some of these people have financial obligations,who depends on their wages. The UAW needs to give up more,but people are set in their ways.
What to do with the retired members? They put their time in and was promise pension and health care. I'm not for cutting their retiring package,GM paid the money into the system for them,so it should be there for them.
It's because we are a 1st world country. Any civilized nation should have good-paying jobs, universal health care, and free education at the very least. Those countries with less I would consider to be either 3rd world hellholes, or banana republics. Obviously you would like America to be one of those two.
i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. i see free education and health care as unsustainable ideals. at some point you run out of other peoples money
i would argue that part of the reason that they're 3rd world hellholes is because property rights aren't upheld therefore nobody wants to invest there. i believe it's also because contract law is not upheld with the same consequence. there seems to be little divide between the executive, legislature and judiciary which means that investors are always at risk from the whims of whomever is in charge without relying on due process. the last reason is that they believe they can print their way out of deficits which always debases their currency. the conspiracy theorists might want to add something about wb and imf debt and how it is forced on the 3rd world but we'll leave that one for now.
minimum wage, free healthcare/ education are undoubtedly noble endeavours but the unintended consequences are worse than the disease they aim to cure. nevertheless these ideals will be rammed through. the judiciary will be ignored as will contract law. property rights will be obscured and we'll print to pay for the ever greater deficits brought about by our endless wars, free healthcare, bank bailouts, auto bailouts, minimum wage, airline bailouts, insurance bailouts, homeowner bailouts etc etc etc.
this strategy is looking remarkably similar to the one employed in the land of my birth!
The union isn't was it use to be. Yes they need to change their union agreement. I really don't care about the bail outs. The government is going to do what they think is best for the people. There isn't anything I can do, but call or write the elected officials to voice my concerns. The UAW got their selves into this mester mode and majority will not change. They suck the life out of the company. All and all GM management allowed them to keep taking and taking.
The way I see it,there are many UAW members who live their lives on a set income they receive. No one wants to take a concession. Some of these people have financial obligations,who depends on their wages. The UAW needs to give up more,but people are set in their ways.
What to do with the retired members? They put their time in and was promise pension and health care. I'm not for cutting their retiring package,GM paid the money into the system for them,so it should be there for them.
I agree. However ,why is it "okay" that these people are able to say "we have bills to pay,etc.. that depend on what we are making now?" when many others are saying the same thing and getting criticized here and on other threads?
Everyone lives (for the most part) according to their incomes.
The union was once there to protect people from loosing their jobs,to give fair wages and to make their working environment a safe one.
It has turned into much more than that and no one is willing to change.
I also don't believe in taking away retirement benefits, but again, there are millions of people in our country that are being told that is what is going to happen to them,or it has already happened. Including my 2 67 year old parents. They worked for companies for 30+ years and both have had their retirement benefits stripped away.
My parents now have to live on their fixed incomes and hope and pray that neither one of them becomes seriously ill.
Why shouldn't they be able to "complain" or be a "sour grape" about that ?
It's because we are a 1st world country. Any civilized nation should have good-paying jobs, universal health care, and free education at the very least. Those countries with less I would consider to be either 3rd world hellholes, or banana republics. Obviously you would like America to be one of those two.
This sense of entitlement is what's going to bring US down... People now, college educated or not, feel entitled to something, and that government should provide all.
You're unique just like everyone else in the world
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Derby, KS
3,250 posts, read 1,991,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killer2021
Was watching a CNBC documentary about GM collapsing. One of the things they brought up was how much the workers make. $28/hr!!! with lots of decent benefits. After the UAW bought them out it was moved down to $14/hr.
So I ask everyone, what do you think is a fair wage to be paying these auto workers?
I say start them off as independent contractors making 10/hr no benefits. Supervisors make 12/hr with benefits. Managers and highly skilled workers make 15/hr with benefits.
Even at those rates, people will be lined up around the block to work. Also Detroit has very low cost of living so making 10/hr is good money! The work they do isn't even hard. I saw one guy who all he did was install shocks into the car all day long. That is how the assembly line works - everyone is specialized to do one specific thing. It would take what? An hour to train someone to do that?
Thoughts?
$10/hr with no benifits? No way.
I'd say starting wage for assemblers should be something on the order of $15/hr WITH full health, some 401k benefits (matching up to 4 to 8%) and time-and-a-half OT (not double or triple for OT).
I'd say someone who's been there for 30 years (doing assembly work) should be earning $30/hr with possibly some better perks on the benefits than the newbs.
BUT...
For machinists and others with special skills the pay scale should be higher.
Starting at $20-$25/hr....after 30 years possibly $45/hr.
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