Jobs of the future - "green" jobs pay scale lower (percentage, tax)

[user_id]

Originally Posted by HappyTexan

Your textbook theory of competition and global trade don't pan out in the real world.

I really don't know which textbook theories you have in mind. The primary point of my post was simple, that $12/hour is living wage for someone in the mid-west. I gave a budget to demonstrate such. Don't know in what way that is a "textbook theory". But, yes, why actually justify what you think when you can so easily write off those with different views. Its certainly easier!

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by user_id

If someone is going to live in a high crime city that is obviously something they are going to have to deal with, so the question is more can you get a decent house in Indianapolis standards for $60k. I just picked the big cities because everyone is familiar with them. The factories are rarely in the big cities.

That said, you can live in Cleveland or Detroit on $10 an hour......ignoring living in a gutter and all.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by user_id

Saying "X is wrong" is not an argument. This stuff is debated all the time and its wrapped in a lot of theory. There are no facts here, no sure why you don't get that.

Yeah there are facts. There is no debate. If I build something, there is absolutely NOTHING saying its going to sell. How can you possibly deny this? Are you blind? Thousands of businesses go out of business every single day because what they are making isnt selling. How are you not getting that?

That theory is only basically stating the obvious, that supply will match demand, which means, that the value of everything produced must equal something else. If it doesnt, it will simply cease to exist.

Originally Posted by user_id

The point is that your example is not "simple" at all, a variety of things can happen. It depends on a variety of market conditions. Due to increases in productivity, population, etc there are no hard limits in demand.

My example IS simple, you are the one trying to introduce all of these stupid variables in to the equation when they dont belong. Population and market conditions affect DEMAND not SUPPLY. To use my example this would be equivalent to an extra business popping up, making 11 businesses needing accounting services. At no point in time will another business pop up simply BECAUSE I created an accounting firm. Supply follows demand, and must adjust itself accordingly not the other way around. Period.

If you think differently, put a thrift store right across the street from another thrift store, selling similiar merchandise for similiar prices, and see if one doesnt directly take ALL of its business from the other one.

Originally Posted by user_id

Your whining about corporate profits and Walmart is a beef with capitalism.

You are intertwining two seperate arguments

Profit arguments are related to outsourcing

Walmart arguments are related to blocking of entrance in to the market

NEITHER were made as arguments against capitalism.

Again, your debate skills are worthless.

Originally Posted by user_id

Regardless, you have not given a single argument. When asked for evidence for the levi's case you said you would look later. But why do you have a view when you don't have supporting data? Because you believe what you want to believe to fit your fancy.

1. I did not EVER say I "would look later" in the Levis case. I point blank said I could not find jeans prices for 1999, and therefore had to use a personal example. I said I would "look later" to counter your budget argument. Straw men and red herings seem to be constant cornerstones of your posts.

2. I have supporting data. Its just data you choose not to accept, again, I could care less about your seal of approval on my observation.

Originally Posted by user_id

Now, I would love to see an actual demonstration that outsourcing has not lowered prices. So far you've merely stated your view.

No, Ive stated fact based on data that is unacceptable to you. I have no desire to spend hours on end looking for data that you are simply going to deny the validity of. You are not the authority on anything.

Originally Posted by user_id

The only way this could occur is if wages were $0. Nothing stops someone from going out and doing something for cheap. The wage may be horrible, but it beats begging with a sign.

1. You have no concept of supply and demand. Actually, you have no concept of any basic principles of economics. Let me help you out. THERE IS ONLY LIMITED DEMAND FOR ALL THINGS. BECAUSE YOU ARE A PLUMBER, DOES NOT MEAN THERE IS ENOUGH DEMAND FOR YOU, OR ANY ONE. Do you get that? I dont know how much easier I can make that. If there is no demand for what you do, nobody would hire you for even the lowest of wages. You make some ignorant assumption that there is precisely the demand for all the labor that is supplied, and its just a matter of wage arbitrage. That would be a big fat wrong as usual on your part.

2. Depending on the wage you may STILL be begging with a sign. If the position does not pay local living wage, you simply working is not going to cover your basic costs.

[Mathguy]

Why is this a surprise?

It's been known for 20 years that graduating highschool with no significant additional skills will put you in a tough position job-wise. This doesn't mean you don't learn to work on helicopter engines or do electrical work, run your own small business etc.

Basically, if you do a job that a reasonable person could learn in a few weeks or so....you will never make a great wage unless some sort of protectionism is in place for your position. Just basic economic supply\demand.

We covered this before in a thread about the Union grocery store chain in CA having troubles (Baggers getting $20 an hour). Frankly, I want people to make a wage comensurate with their skills....I just won't pay some guy $20 an hour to bag my groceries.

[wheelsup]

I still think it's laughable that someone here actually thinks $12/hr is middle class with a family of 4 let alone living by yourself!!!

I survived on $7-$15/hr for quite a while, even saved some, but I was not middle class.

[colleeng47]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I still think it's laughable that someone here actually thinks $12/hr is middle class with a family of 4 let alone living by yourself!!!

I survived on $7-$15/hr for quite a while, even saved some, but I was not middle class.

That's because User_ID seems to think a middle class family can do without life insurance, a warm house in the winter, a cool one in the summer, and no sports teams, Christmas, birthday parties, school supplies, new clothing, etc. for the kiddies. Only yuppies have that stuff don't ya know?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by colleeng47

That's because User_ID seems to think a middle class family can do without life insurance, a warm house in the winter, a cool one in the summer, and no sports teams, Christmas, birthday parties, school supplies, new clothing, etc. for the kiddies. Only yuppies have that stuff don't ya know?

Not to mention saving for retirement & vacation.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

That said, you can live in Cleveland or Detroit on $10 an hour......ignoring living in a gutter and all.

You can buy homes in the $60k range in both of those cities in decent areas. But again, they are big cities, one can't compare them to suburbs.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by colleeng47

That's because User_ID seems to think a middle class family can do without life insurance, a warm house in the winter, a cool one in the summer, and no sports teams, Christmas, birthday parties, school supplies, new clothing, etc. for the kiddies. Only yuppies have that stuff don't ya know?

What are you talking about? I included heating, cooling and clothes explicitly in my budget, just not to ridiculous levels. The budget I gave also has an excess of around $300/month that they can do what they please with.

The family would be lower middle-class. You seem to have it in your mind that a family is only middle-class if they can have a yuppy like lifestyle.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by user_id

You can buy homes in the $60k range in both of those cities in decent areas. But again, they are big cities, one can't compare them to suburbs.

Do you know that for a fact? Have you ever lived in Detroit or Cleveland? Or are you simply just going to realtor.com, and popping in a few search variables like Indianapolis and Pittsburgh.

Let me help you out. In most of the rust belt cities, the majority of housing you find in the mid 10's (such as 60k), is in terrible areas. You can find a few pockets and enclaves of safe areas inside the confines of the city, but the housing is just as expensive as the suburbs or even more so because of its proximity to down town.

So yes, someone living in inner city Detroit could probably get by on 10-12 dollars an hour, with out any extras. However, what is it worth to have substandard inner city education? Inner city violence? Higher insurance premiums? Out in the open in your face drugs? Gun fire? Lack of dependable infrastructure? Poor emergency response times? These are the type of things someone living in one of those "60k" houses will be dealing with on a daily basis.