Jobs of the future - "green" jobs pay scale lower (free-market, money)

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

It is saying that every good produced has a value of another good, meaning supply will exactly match demand....

I'm not going to argue over what it means, you are free to misinterpret the law all you wish.

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Your variables have no applicability to the argument.

Yes, of course not. Why consider the variables that actually exist in the world when you can think about contrived toy world.

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Creating an accounting firm will not create demand for its services, however....

This again depends on the market conditions. You'd have to follow this up with a rather long list of "assuming X1,....,Xn".

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Some of it may have to do with zoning, however, that removed, I imagine they are next to each other to directly steal business.

This is not the reason, look up "Hotelling's law".

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Monopolies and oligopolies are certainly barriers to entry.

Walmart is not a monopoly, there are after all a number of existing competitors.

Originally Posted by Randomdude

This is evidence. Im not sure what "sample" would be enough for you to describe the "aggragrate" pricing. Other then non-sale priced jeans.

Now you are trying to suggest that a single example tells you about aggregate prices?

Originally Posted by Randomdude

You obviously have missed the definition of living wage. Living wage is not defined as "the minimum possible wage for one to obtain the minimum possible things to exist".

People all define "living wage" in relation to what they have. Regardless, the point is that there is a lower bound on wages.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by mpyne

18~20 an hour is not what skilled labor gets paid in the area. These are the types of jobs that are getting offshored to Mexico or India

The articles states that skilled workers can get up to $20.

Originally Posted by mpyne

I use IT as an example again. Do you think Java programmers are unskilled? Or network engineers? They are being offered from $8 an hour in some cases. The average appears to be around $12 an hour.

$12/hour is no where near the average pay for a skilled Java Programmer, they can easily get paid $80/k+ a year. Although these jobs require much more than simple knowledge of the language, but rather a knowledge of Java related web technologies.

Even script kiddies get more than $12/hour....

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by user_id

I'm not going to argue over what it means, you are free to misinterpret the law all you wish.

You are misinterpreting the law. I have demonstrated that over and over.

Originally Posted by user_id

Yes, of course not. Why consider the variables that actually exist in the world when you can think about contrived toy world.

You have no clue what the definition of applicability is.

Originally Posted by user_id

This again depends on the market conditions. You'd have to follow this up with a rather long list of "assuming X1,....,Xn".

No, actually you dont. Creating something is no guarantee of exchange. Period. There is no "assuming X1". There is no assumption needed at all.

Originally Posted by user_id

This is not the reason, look up "Hotelling's law".

Hotellings law makes no assumptions regarding zoning, available real estate, advertising, or any justification when goods are not directly substitutable. Of course this "law" is no longer applicable when factoring any of these situations in.

Anyhow, even ignoring that, Hotellings law states that two businesses will geographically position themselves near eachother because it gives them the best access to customers........So, how is that, in different words, NOT attempting to steal customers from each other? Or are you arguing schematics here that the exact purpose is actually simply to attract customers better (they just happen to be the same customers the other business is trying to attract).

Originally Posted by user_id

Walmart is not a monopoly, there are after all a number of existing competitors.

Walmart is the strongest player in a shrinking oligopoly. Most of Walmarts main competitors, outside of Target, which is trying to appeal to a completely different segment of people in order to not directly compete with Walmart, are flailing about, such as Kmart and Sears. Within our lifetimes, Walmart will become the ONLY low to mid end department store.

Originally Posted by user_id

Now you are trying to suggest that a single example tells you about aggregate prices?

Who cares about aggregate prices? A completely legit example can be taken from comparing regular priced jeans at the same store, at two different time periods. Unless for some reason the store decided to jack up its profit margin, same store purchases can easily be compared based on the underlying wholesale prices, and can be used to make an inference about those wholesale prices.

Originally Posted by user_id

People all define "living wage" in relation to what they have. Regardless, the point is that there is a lower bound on wages.

1. No, living wage actually has a real definition. It is not adjustable based on each persons considerations.

2. There is no bound to the lower end. Given no other option (government wage laws, welfare, crime, growing their own food etc), people who have nothing other then their labor to sell, will sell it for the lowest price offered by the capitalist. Period. It does not matter if its enough to sustain life or not. The US has proven that it is not neccessary to actually be able to afford what you produce, therefore, wages do not even have to be high enough to physically sustain production. People will simply go in to debt for longer periods of time to get what they need. Thats the trump card the capitalist can always play.

[mpyne]

Originally Posted by user_id

The articles states that skilled workers can get up to $20.

Call me a cynic but in todays busness climate I see this pay being offered for postions that used to pay a lot more than this. This is probably mid level manager pay. Im assuming but my assumptions are usually right.

Originally Posted by user_id

$12/hour is no where near the average pay for a skilled Java Programmer, they can easily get paid $80/k+ a year. Although these jobs require much more than simple knowledge of the language, but rather a knowledge of Java related web technologies.

Even script kiddies get more than $12/hour....

You mentioned skilled Java programmer. That pay is possible but its more the exception than the rule. I can guarantee these are the jobs that are in jeapordy. I was an Epicentric/Vignette Portal Admin and our whole IT Dept. was offshored to India.

This is considered entry level developer. Maybe Im a complete moron but I think this is a lot to expect for entry level

The candidate will work with a team that is responsible for the design, development, and maintenance of several development efforts using Java. Responsibilities will include support to the design, implementation, and integration of software solutions. Must be able to work in a dynamic highly flexible, team-oriented environment with individual responsibilities for internal and customer deliverables and schedule. Willingness to learn new techniques and an ability to accomplish tasks through research and self-study.

Desired Skills: AJAX, YUI, Groovy, Grails, REST, SOAP, XML, Hibernate, Spring Framework, Web Services, Apache Struts, Oracle SQL, BEA Weblogic/J2EE application server (or similar). The successful candidate should have 1 to 3 years of experience designing, building, and maintaining Web-based information systems utilizing a combination of Commercial-Off-The-Shelf (COTS) software, .Net, Oracle and SQL Server, detailed knowledge of current software development practices, trends, and standards, and have experience with object-oriented languages and methodologies to support the design, development, and maintenance of software applications and systems.

Following Skills are Nice to Haves: •Strong JAVA software development skills with demonstrated experience on successful JAVA development projects. •Experience working on CMM or CMMI projects in a software development role. •Experience with standard software development practices such as: source control (Subversion), unit testing (JUnit), and/or continuos integration (CruiseControl). •Experience with database development and design, preferably in Oracle. •Experience using open source JAVA development tools such as: Eclipse, JBoss, Ant, etc. • Agile development • Database design and implementation to include Oracle 9i and 10G and SQL Server • MS SharePoint Services • MS Windows • Lotus Notes • .Net, C#, Visual Basic, Visual Studio • Automated workflow technologies • SOA • XML, HTML

[wheelsup]

If $12/hr really is the pay for a java programmer now I have to thank my lucky stars I learned to fly airplanes instead of programming.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

If $12/hr really is the pay for a java programmer now I have to thank my lucky stars I learned to fly airplanes instead of programming.

I wouldnt be too comfortable.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

I wouldnt be too comfortable.

with what?

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

with what?

Flying as an optimum career. Its just a matter of time before everything is infiltrated with dirt wages and insourcing and outsourcing.

Id say pilots are a prime target with how badly the airlines have all been doing over the past decade or two.

[wheelsup]

Oh I agree. At least if I'm going to be paid crap I might as well do a job where I don't really do anything .

Cabbatage is very real. The kicker is foreign airlines pay double or triple what the American airlines pay, have more respect towards their flight crew, and hot F/A's. So I welcome the outsourcing.

[hindsight2020]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Oh I agree. At least if I'm going to be paid crap I might as well do a job where I don't really do anything .

Cabbatage is very real. The kicker is foreign airlines pay double or triple what the American airlines pay, have more respect towards their flight crew, and hot F/A's. So I welcome the outsourcing.

The thing is cabbotage won't raise wages in the US, it will continue to drive them down. All that it will do in the US labor side of the house is less people will attempt to fly professionally; some alternatively wil attempt to do so as an ex-pat (which necessitates leaving the country mind you).

The foreign airlines you speak of will not pay those wages here in the US. The Europeans have a a pretty good grip on the ab initio thing back home, which honestly is what should happen in the US since people here can't seem to police themselves and their "gee whiz I'd fly a plane for free if they'd let me" labor elasticity. Same goes for the Asian and Middle Eastern market. Price protectionism will remain in place in Europe much longer, which is an admittedly harder place to enter the professional aviation industry. One has to pick one's poison.

That said, I don't care if some saudi dirtbag wants to pay me 10K/mo tax free to fly professionally, I'm not moving to a##crackistan 6000nm away from my family and friends, globalization be damned (Dubai's a ticking time bomb, IMO). I love to fly, but I love my personal and fraternal affiliations more, and I don't consider myself a commodity. I'm therefore priced out of the market. Of course when Americans start falling off the sky to their fiery deaths more often, maybe then my skills will be price-valued to a point where I'm willing to offer my services, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

-- break break--

user_id,

You talk a big game about rent seekers, but I can make the argument we're all rent seekers at some level. Humans are not commodities, the idea people should turn on and off training and vocational pursuit on command to the capital holders' market pressures is callous, and unfortunately economics fails miserably to address the non-economic dynamics of such impositions. The holy inquisition on unions fails to address that swinging the pendulum all the way to the other side is equally treacherous. I think that's why you're seeing the majority of posters taking exception to your assertion that 20-some-K annual wages satisfies the definition of living wage, and more specifically middle class, in any region of the US. Likewise, the logical conclusion to your anti-rent-seeking logic is that Americans need to lower their conditions of living to that of a second world state for the median. If disavowing the idea of human beings being treated as commodities makes me a rent seeker, I have no problem being called one. In terms of total wealth hoarding, there are bigger rent seekers in the capital owner class of America than your run of the mill union machinist.