New Economic Update (wage, 100k, economy, amount)

[Stac2007]

Originally Posted by tallrick

The weak dollar scenario ultimately hurts labor. Sure, more people have jobs but their pay is lost to rampant inflation in necessities. The solution would be a stable dollar with deflationary consumer prices. The trick would be to invest the capital created in tools to make the average worker more productive. Yes many jobs will be lost. However, one wage earner could easily support a family instead of all having to work. In reality a prosperous economy would be one where less jobs are needed yet all can have the necessities of life without much effort. If my job was farming in 1900 and I saved money to buy a tractor, then I could reduce my work hours and still produce more! If I replaced every job on the farm with robotics I would have to do no physical labor except to maintain the equipment. As humans we need food, shelter and clothing. Energy harvested from the ground, the sun or other sources can do it all for us. However, we currently have to rent our homes from the Government, and send part of our productivity to support them so our standards of living continue to decline. They continue to rob us and lie about the state of the economy, yet we continue to support them. Energy and raw materials are the engine of technology, and only technology can improve our lives.

Salaries have not kept up with inflation for twenty years! Why do you think the banks came up with those crazy alterative mortgages? How could any one afford them other wise? Who ever heard of no money down mortgages? Now that people are defaulting on them, we as a people are beginning to realize we have a false economy generated by the banks and investment firms to make insane profits.

[rubber_factory]

Originally Posted by Stac2007

Have you ever written a software program? I thought not!

I have written my share of software programs. In fact, I write code every day, Python scripting, not "Software Programs" per se. It is a tool, it gets the job done, and I won't go complaining to the government when Python no longer gets the job done.

I majored in Computer Science long enough (2.5 years) to understand that the supply of mediocre software programmers FAR exceeds the demand for them.

They truly have a skill which is remarkable. It takes years of experience to become a great software engineer.

You do not know that "Great Software Engineers" are being outsourced. It could be mediocre programmers and generously-titled middle management that is being outsourced, saving the American economy from misallocated tech investments.

Even if I'm generous, and assume you're informed (despite lack of evidence to support your position), then these "Great Software Engineers" should go find some new language or new sub-field of programming where their "Great skills" are in demand.

I would not tell them their skills are not important to the economy as a whole.

Great. Then don't.

[Stac2007]

Originally Posted by rubber_factory

I have written my share of software programs. In fact, I write code every day, Python scripting, not "Software Programs" per se. It is a tool, it gets the job done, and I won't go complaining to the government when Python no longer gets the job done.

I majored in Computer Science long enough (2.5 years) to understand that the supply of mediocre software programmers FAR exceeds the demand for them.



You do not know that "Great Software Engineers" are being outsourced. It could be mediocre programmers and generously-titled middle management that is being outsourced, saving the American economy from misallocated tech investments.

Even if I'm generous, and assume you're informed (despite lack of evidence to support your position), then these "Great Software Engineers" should go find some new language or new sub-field of programming where their "Great skills" are in demand.



Great. Then don't.

If you used to write software why are you not doing it now?

[rubber_factory]

Originally Posted by Stac2007

If you used to write software why are you not doing it now?

It is too much of a commodity. If I'd gone to college in the 90's, I probably would've stuck with it. I was post-tech bubble, and I saw early on that these jobs could be offshored at the blink of an eye, if the workers did not have substantial domain knowledge.

The concept of "Domain knowledge" is extremely important. It doesn't matter all that much how good of a programmer you are, what speciality you choose (Or don't choose!) is what seperates a valuable American coder from an unemployed American coder. If Sanjabareebabameshnika can produce the exact same widgets as you can, but for 1/3 the price, it is a no brainer! You're screwed.

There are other factors:
It is very technically challenging and competitive
I have social skills which can be put to better use.
The job security is a joke, even if your job doesn't get offshored.
The hours are long
The pay is disappointing
The lifestyle sucks
The social status is low

[Stac2007]

Originally Posted by rubber_factory

It is too much of a commodity. If I'd gone to college in the 90's, I probably would've stuck with it. I was post-tech bubble, and I saw early on that these jobs could be offshored at the blink of an eye, if the workers did not have substantial domain knowledge.

The concept of "Domain knowledge" is extremely important. It doesn't matter all that much how good of a programmer you are, what speciality you choose (Or don't choose!) is what seperates a valuable American coder from an unemployed American coder. If Sanjabareebabameshnika can produce the exact same widgets as you can, but for 1/3 the price, it is a no brainer! You're screwed.

There are other factors:
It is very technically challenging and competitive
I have social skills which can be put to better use.
The job security is a joke, even if your job doesn't get offshored.
The hours are long
The pay is disappointing
The lifestyle sucks
The social status is low

So you’re a self made kind of person. I can respect that but like yourself there are people who have gifts which could change an industry as a whole but will never have the opportunity because those industries are gone here in the U.S. Remember the real McCoy? He was a self made man also.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Stac2007

And you understand economics? I took macro and micro economics in college and understand it well. By the way my college economics professor predicted this crisis back in the early 90's so I guess he was right and you are in the dark.

In the dark about what exactly? I was not thinking about economics in the 90's. Anyhow, yes I think I have a pretty good handle on economics, though I'm much more interested in thinking (and reading) about its foundations than modern economic modeling.

Anyhow, I don't pretend to be an expert in the field. I don't have a degree in economics, but I have read a large number of books on the subject.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Stac2007

Have you ever written a software program? I thought not! They truly have a skill which is remarkable. It takes years of experience to become a great software engineer. I would not tell them their skills are not important to the economy as a whole.

Do you have any experience in this field? Nope.

Software or computer science in general is just like any another field in that there is a big spectrum of latent. The majority of people in the field are not "great", rather far from it. A great software engineer will have no trouble finding a good paying job, they are fairly rare. Software is the sort of thing where someone with true talent can do 2~3 times more work than someone with mediocre talent in the same time period. Anyhow, the majority of people in the labor market are mediocre with a decent percentage that is pretty bad. Just talk with anybody that handles hiring in the field.

The people at the lower ends of the talent spectrum are the ones that are seeing their jobs outsourced. Why pay top dollar for people that are not even good? For whatever reason many Americans have the view that you go to college get a job doing what you learned there and that's that. But this model does not work well in software, the technologies that are hot today did not even exist 10~15 years ago. If you are not actively training yourself on the side your skill set will become outdated within a decade. Lastly, there is a difference between a "code monkey" and a computer scientists. The latter will have much less troubles with regard to out-sourcing than the former. Combine your computer science knowledge with another important field (economics, biology, physics, etc) and offshoring will be of little concern.

Anyhow, most the people seeing their jobs outsourced to India, etc have sub-par skills and they want to extract rents from the rest of us to maintain a wage that they do not deserve.

[Stac2007]

Originally Posted by user_id

Do you have any experience in this field? Nope.

Software or computer science in general is just like any another field in that there is a big spectrum of latent. The majority of people in the field are not "great", rather far from it. A great software engineer will have no trouble finding a good paying job, they are fairly rare. Software is the sort of thing where someone with true talent can do 2~3 times more work than someone with mediocre talent in the same time period. Anyhow, the majority of people in the labor market are mediocre with a decent percentage that is pretty bad. Just talk with anybody that handles hiring in the field.

The people at the lower ends of the talent spectrum are the ones that are seeing their jobs outsourced. Why pay top dollar for people that are not even good? For whatever reason many Americans have the view that you go to college get a job doing what you learned there and that's that. But this model does not work well in software, the technologies that are hot today did not even exist 10~15 years ago. If you are not actively training yourself on the side your skill set will become outdated within a decade. Lastly, there is a difference between a "code monkey" and a computer scientists. The latter will have much less troubles with regard to out-sourcing than the former. Combine your computer science knowledge with another important field (economics, biology, physics, etc) and offshoring will be of little concern.

Anyhow, most the people seeing their jobs outsourced to India, etc have sub-par skills and they want to extract rents from the rest of us to maintain a wage that they do not deserve.

Come on! Subpar skills? how does an engineer compete with a person who is earning one quater of the salary paid here in the U.S.? It's not about skill but cost, pure and simple.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Stac2007

Come on! Subpar skills? how does an engineer compete with a person who is earning one quater of the salary paid here in the U.S.? It's not about skill but cost, pure and simple.

Yes, its about skills. A highly skilled programmer is rare on a global scale, the demand for them far exceeds the supply. The highly skilled Indian programmer would be stupid to accept a wage dramatically smaller than one in Europe or the US. On the other hand the labor market is over supplied with mediocre and bad programmers, this drives down the wages on a global scale.

The key to not being "outsourced" in technology is to be very multifaceted, make it hard for someone to replace you. If all you can do is one thing and you are not even particularly good at that....well then you're a prime target.

Honestly, people in IT in general demand way too high wages in connection to their skills and talent. They think that because they went to college they should get paid $100k/year, yet they only deserve a marginally higher wage than say a blue collar low-skill job. Generally speaking outsourcing makes it hard for laborers to collect rents from their employer/society. Of course, they are going to hate it! Without it they would be paid what they actually deserve, which is not that much!

[Stac2007]

Originally Posted by user_id

Yes, its about skills. A highly skilled programmer is rare on a global scale, the demand for them far exceeds the supply. The highly skilled Indian programmer would be stupid to accept a wage dramatically smaller than one in Europe or the US. On the other hand the labor market is over supplied with mediocre and bad programmers, this drives down the wages on a global scale.

The key to not being "outsourced" in technology is to be very multifaceted, make it hard for someone to replace you. If all you can do is one thing and you are not even particularly good at that....well then you're a prime target.

Honestly, people in IT in general demand way too high wages in connection to their skills and talent. They think that because they went to college they should get paid $100k/year, yet they only deserve a marginally higher wage than say a blue collar low-skill job. Generally speaking outsourcing makes it hard for laborers to collect rents from their employer/society. Of course, they are going to hate it! Without it they would be paid what they actually deserve, which is not that much!

I’m not buying your argument for a second. To think that only India software engineers are the best is insane. I bet you make $100k a year but its no it’s not right that someone who spends years of college to become an engineer should also. Sound like you have a two class system going. Those with have money that make economic and political decisions for the multitude and those of us who deal with your tyranny.