Low skill jobs pay less every year (adjusted to inflation) (insurance, wholesale)

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I understand what you are saying. Unless you want the Government to select who does what in this country and limit the award of AA and BA degrees it will only get worse.

Im not so sure that isnt the best way to head. I think, the only way to fix this dilema is to control the labor supply.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

There was a survey from the ABA asking lawyers if they were happy they had gone to law school. The overwhelmingly majority said "NO", and were significantly in debt for what amounted to maybe $10k-$20k extra a year. After taxes and payment of student loans they were actually in the hole. However I would wager their income will increase as time goes on.

You ever looked in a phone book at the attorney or lawyer section, wherever your local one lists them? Its about 20 pages long here. Im willing to bet a majority of them survive on one or two smaller cases a month, or nickle and dime low dollar services, like minor traffic violations and uncontested divorces.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Some of the best (free) training out there IMO is the military. You get structure and excellent training in your specialty, and then receive significant amounts of money to go to college afterward. In fact I wish I had done it outside of high school. That's how my dad did it.

1. Most positions in the military translate poorly in to civilian life (including almost all positions in the Marine Corps), and those that do transfer well, have a huge surplus of individuals waiting to get in. Try getting in to electronics, computers, or nursing these days. However, as they told my brother when he tried to join the Navy, there is plenty of room for "boatswains mate" (which is basically a jack of all menial trades, and where you sit and rot waiting for something to open). They told him he could sit in "boatswains mate" hell for over 4 years waiting to become an electronics tech. My brother tested in the top 5% of all recruits on the ASVAB.

2. The military will not pay for you to continuously reroll the dice, and they will only pay for what they want to pay for. You could end up in the same boat, just not in debt for your original degree.

3. Not everyone is qualified for service. The are millions upon millions of people who would be medically or mentally disqualified for service in this country. I have two seperate medical conditions right now which would make me unfit for duty. My brother was rejected from Naval service for a medical condition.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

P.S. Ridiculous is spelled with an "i", not an "e" .

I cant say Im 100% concerned with spelling on a conversational board, especially when I squeeze my posts in at work between assignments. I will occasionally mess up homophones, and sometimes I make spelling errors, and Ill even make grammatical errors, and I make tons of typos Im sure. As long as the content is there, Im not being graded and its not for publishing, so, not a big deal in my opinion.

[Rei]

I could go take a 35K engineering job and call it a day, but I could do the same without a college degree at the local Taco Bell for assistant manager, and the work would be easier, not to mention I would have 4 years of income on the engineering graduate.

We pay our drafters more than that. Engineers make twice as that. I don't know where you're getting your information from...

As to PE licenses, hardly barriers to entry.

NCEES is trying to up the requirements to having at least a masters before you can sit in for the PE exam.

[subsound]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Here is the thing dude, you are taking the statement wrong. One outlier of the statement does not invalidate it, a few outliers dont either. In fact, the only thing that could possibly invalidate that statement is when a large majority of people it doesnt apply to.

But it's not one outlier, Looking at people I know if it was the majority then a majority of them would have the same problem. It's a large enough sample of a variety of people (150) where I can look at it and say for sure I know their stories (people love to talk to a finance guy about money, and complain over a beer).

Out of that sample, since I can't ask 50 million college graduates about their life story, I would say ~30 have degrees I would consider useless in their own field. Ones where they have not had a job in that field in over 3 years and I cannot see a way to get that future. ~ 40 total have some sort of college debt that does not exceed more then 50% of their earnings in one year, mostly it's around 10k. Even my MBA, which people like to shout as the "6 figure degree", only cost me about 25k in tuition at one of the top 15 schools (I worked to pay for my living situation).

Out of all of those people I personally can identify and know their stories...only 2 have the crippling debt you describe as applying to a vast majority of college graduates (about to be 3 no matter how we warn her the course of action is the wrong one). Credit card debt is another matter entirely...that's a great factor of stress.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by Rei

NCEES is trying to up the requirements to having at least a masters before you can sit in for the PE exam.

So now the solution has become, if everyone has this degree, lets make this certification cost even more.

Thats insane.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by subsound

Out of all of those people I personally can identify and know their stories...only 2 have the crippling debt you describe as applying to a vast majority of college graduates (about to be 3 no matter how we warn her the course of action is the wrong one). Credit card debt is another matter entirely...that's a great factor of stress.

The primary cause of boomerang kids is college debt in combination with poor wages. Over 20% of adults 21-34 live with their parents, if you subtract out the number of those in college dorms, the number increases. Additionally, there is a further chunk of kids who are living on their own, but at a very low standard of living.

[subsound]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

The primary cause of boomerang kids is college debt in combination with poor wages. Over 20% of adults 21-34 live with their parents, if you subtract out the number of those in college dorms, the number increases. Additionally, there is a further chunk of kids who are living on their own, but at a very low standard of living.

I agree in the problem, but I don't agree in the cause. You have two major recessionary periods with in a decade where people are graduating into an environment of years of cutting those who are easiest to cut (such as kids right out of college). By the time one ended, unless you were involved in housing, the other one had just started. Companies had just really absorbed those who were laid off the last time, it was difficult to take in the new grads with little experience and an education in the field (but it certainly happened). Those who got general liberal arts degrees didn't even have a chance without a good focus and perseverance.

The fault is not with the education, and many did not take out in the high 5 figures for debt to fund it. When so many people are out of work just having the right education is irrelevant when you are competing with some one who was laid off with a number of years of experience.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by subsound

The fault is not with the education, and many did not take out in the high 5 figures for debt to fund it.

You do not need to neccessarily take out "high 5 figures" of loans to be buckled by their weight. You only need to be making a pitiful enough salary on graduation that the payments on the loans take up far more then the amount which would allow you to survive.

You act as if the average grad is making 60k and has 10k of debt, so the payments are mearly an inconvenience in most locales. There are boatloads of grads making less then 25k on graduation (my first job paid about 21.5), and are 20-40k in debt (the average cost of instate tuition is about 24k, without room and board or books).

68 billion dollars in 2005-2006 was given out in student loans. Just the amount given out in student loans for the year 2005 was 2.7% of the total US consumer debt outstanding in the year 2005 (2.5 trillion). Student loan debt is growing astronomically as a percent of total consumer debt, and the rewards are not being felt in median salary.

All the rewards of this debt are going to the capitalist, who is using consumer debt to subsidize improvements to his work force and productivity levels, just as he uses it as a replacement for wages when it comes time to sell his product.

Originally Posted by subsound

When so many people are out of work just having the right education is irrelevant when you are competing with some one who was laid off with a number of years of experience.

Why are so many skilled people out of work......and why are more skilled people out of work every year?

[whydoucare?]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Yep, until microbiology becomes the flavor of the month, your profession gets flooded, and you watch the prevailing wage of your job get stomped in to the ground. Youll probably get laid off for someone working for 1/3 of your wage. But hey, you can always go back to school, throw the dart at the board again, at your own expense of course, and hope you get lucky.

Back in the mid 80's, you couldnt pay people to be computer scientists. In the mid to late 90's, when computer scientists were making 6 figures, everybody wanted to be a computer scientist. Then the tech bubble burst. Now computer scientists can be had for 50k a year, or even less, and there arent enough jobs after the H-1B's get their cuts, to cover all the new comp science grads. There are MANY comp science grads working some help desk for $12 an hour, with a 20-40k dollar education under their belt.

Oh wait, I get it, guy who went in to computer science chasing the bucks in 1996, should have looked in to his crystal ball, and saw the tech bubble pop, and changed his major immediatley!

Whatever, I am done with your argument. I work in Healthcare so I seriously doubt my job is going anywhere. You dont even know exactly what I do or where I work. So you cant comment on if I will have a job or not. My job is very different from Computer Science. And you so worried about people going to college. Dont worry about it. This is the way things are..get over it!! You sound bitter, you must have a worthless degree. Moving on....

[Rei]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

So now the solution has become, if everyone has this degree, lets make this certification cost even more.

Thats insane.

Having an MS for requirement is one of the ways gov't can control how many people can go into the field. Do you want people to be able to sit in for PE exam with a HS diploma?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Im not so sure that isnt the best way to head. I think, the only way to fix this dilema is to control the labor supply.

Of course it's not! Who controls labor supply? Why not let the market control the labor supply? Anything else and those that have what we want are simply pulling up the ladder behind them.

Pilots have been dealing with this issue for over a decade now. The well paying jobs have seen pay cuts of 50% before factoring in inflation and an expansion of jobs at the lower end of the contract carriers. This in turn means all of us at that level are competing directly with each other, which lowers pay. All the while training costs have been skyrocketing.

In the end it will work itself out. Only the rich kids and stupid kids will pay $80k-$100k for a degree + flight training to play airline pilot for a job that starts off at around $10/hr. Pilots at that level now, not seeing any advancement opportunity, will turn to other jobs.