Low skill jobs pay less every year (adjusted to inflation) (borrowing, buy)

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by user_id

Hey, look its reality at the door and it says you're wrong. The median household income in the US is $50,000. The median income for men working full time is around $44k/year.

The median income for men is not 44k. In 2007 it was 33k, and not likely much higher in 2008, in fact, its probably lower

Historical Income Tables - People

Real median income for men has changed almost none since the late 60's, early 70's, dispite huge increases in education and skill levels. To put it mildly, it takes far more education, experience and training, to make the EXACT same money our fathers did.

The change in household income can be explained almost completely by the increase in dual income households.

I think we already went over this in another post.

[Mathguy]

My advice is to gain some skills and not do jobs that are fairly easy to do or that people can be trained to do in a week or so.

Only during a rare period in the US could people with few skills make a good living just by showing up and working reasonably hard.

Best of luck.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by floridasandy

what you are advocating is just what our government did, which was to print money and monetize debt. Where, however, does the state get the money to spend? Ah, as Hamlet might say, there's the rub. There are only three ways the government can obtain funds to throw at all their shovel-ready projects and all three leave in their wake negative economic consequences.
When Economic Stimulus Does Not Stimulate :: The Market Oracle :: Financial Markets Analysis & Forecasting Free Website

I just stopped reading there, because I didnt advocate any of this. So Ill just cut you off at the pass of creating a straw man.

[subsound]

Yes and no, it's not really that simple. Those who are low wage tend to have more now then they did even when I was a kid, let alone 50 years ago or even 100 years ago...certainly less basic needs insecurity (food especially). Also the relative poverty levels have changed over the years, as many high wage earners earn more and general US wealth has increased. In addition the role of earners has changed over time as industries life cycles start and end, as time has gone on there have been less agricultural/manufacturing jobs and more higher skill IT, finance, and research positions. Also there is some role of effect as more people have entered the workforce since WW2, so relative wages per person have changed...some for the better as there are wider ranges of opportunities, but low skill work I think there are more but wages have decreased.

There are certainly more opportunities for those who are higher skill workers, and more opportunities to get a better education with federal assistance (loans and grants) then there used to be. Debt is not bad in itself, but some people seem to not think the educational experience through well and strategically plan how to use it to get the get the most useful education and lessen their debt. Also, as seen in this economy, many educated workers that have no other option will push out the lower skilled workers out of opportunities that exist even though they are well over qualified for it.

It leads me to think that the best you can do for yourself is to become educated and skilled. A job that just requires a warm body and minimal training has always been the least stable and lowest paid, and when a person can learn and do the job in a week it makes no sense paying some one more to do the same who has 10 years of experience.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by subsound

It leads me to think that the best you can do for yourself is to become educated and skilled. A job that just requires a warm body and minimal training has always been the least stable and lowest paid, and when a person can learn and do the job in a week it makes no sense paying some one more to do the same who has 10 years of experience.

What you left out of your analysis is the cost of obtaining education and skills.

Why would a person pay 10's of thousands of dollars for a college education, when they have a better chance of making $10 an hour then $20 when they graduate?

The price of a college education, in proporation to its value is falling every year. Thats simply because its following a very basic model that is constantly ignored by the "work hard, get an eduction" set.

If you train 10 carpenters, 10 carpentry jobs will not appear. However, the two carpenter jobs will be able to pay less for labor, and the carpentry school will charge more for training. The 8 trained carpenters will either end up taking helper jobs, or other low skill jobs, and waiting for a carpentry job to open, or will end up paying for even more training in another field, and hope something opens in that.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Mathguy

My advice is to gain some skills and not do jobs that are fairly easy to do or that people can be trained to do in a week or so.

Only during a rare period in the US could people with few skills make a good living just by showing up and working reasonably hard.

Best of luck.

Pilots starting out require around $45k in training costs out of pocket, then 6 months - 1 year as a flight instructor making around $15k/yr, then to an airline with 8 weeks training and $25k-$30k paid company training for a starting pay of around $11-$12/hr.

This is the same if not LESS than pilots were making 10-20 years ago NOT INCLUDING inflation.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Pilots starting out require around $45k in training costs out of pocket, then 6 months - 1 year as a flight instructor making around $15k/yr, then to an airline with 8 weeks training and $25k-$30k paid company training for a starting pay of around $11-$12/hr.

This is the same if not LESS than pilots were making 10-20 years ago NOT INCLUDING inflation.

There you go.

It is like this is many professions.

Chances are it probably didnt cost pilots as much as it does now to become pilots either. They probably need more licenses and flight hours to obtain the exact same jobs too.

[floridasandy]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

I just stopped reading there, because I didnt advocate any of this. So Ill just cut you off at the pass of creating a straw man.

your quote:
To create demand, money must be placed directly in to the consumer classes hands, or through efficient government spending.



how else were you advocating placing money directly into the hands of the consumer class and / or efficient government spending if not by monetization of debt?

[mpyne]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Why would a person pay 10's of thousands of dollars for a college education, when they have a better chance of making $10 an hour then $20 when they graduate?.

These days its more like $10 vs $12 after you graduate.

When customer service jobs paying $12 a hour require a college degree you know there is something wrong with the system

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

There you go.

It is like this is many professions.

Chances are it probably didnt cost pilots as much as it does now to become pilots either. They probably need more licenses and flight hours to obtain the exact same jobs too.

Definitely no to the costs! They have increased much faster than inflation. 10 years ago the cost to obtain the necessary ratings was around $25k and now it is around $45k.

As far as getting jobs yes and no. The lower paying jobs have greatly expanded and the higher paying jobs just aren't hiring. The last pilot at American was hired sometime in the late 90's IIRC. Even those "high paying" jobs have seen wages drop 50% in the last 10 years and that doesn't account for inflation. They're probably looking at a 60% decline in wages over a 10 year period factoring in inflation.

I would argue that it is a highly skilled job, certainly not one you can train someone to do in just a few weeks. But it pays (starting out at least) like a minmum wage job. Plus you spend 180+ nights away from home every year.