Low skill jobs pay less every year (adjusted to inflation) (free market, limitations)

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by floridasandy

your quote:
To create demand, money must be placed directly in to the consumer classes hands, or through efficient government spending.



how else were you advocating placing money directly into the hands of the consumer class and / or efficient government spending if not by monetization of debt?

Raising minimum wage. Tax cuts for the lower classes, but combined with cuts in federal spending to balance. Shifting of current spending to programs which concentrate on creating jobs, rather then filling politicians and their friends pockets.

It is not neccessary to just "print money", or for the government to go in to more debt borrowing money to give out or create programs.

[wheelsup]

We don't need the Government creating jobs, we need private industry creating jobs.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by mpyne

These days its more like $10 vs $12 after you graduate.

When customer service jobs paying $12 a hour require a college degree you know there is something wrong with the system

Definatley. The education of our workforce has amounted in a few things including

1. Lowering wages of most jobs requiring degrees or training
2. Increasing the educational requirements, and correspondingly, barriers to entry, for low end jobs that certainly do not require the skills set obtained by college or specialized training (as in your example of the customer service job requiring a college degree)
3. The insane inflation to obtain education and training, the cost of which, has been almost completely a benefit to the employer, who is getting a better trained employee, for no additional expense.


However, it has NOT led to an increase in real median wage. We are working the same quality of jobs we were working 40 years ago.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

We don't need the Government creating jobs, we need private industry creating jobs.

Private industry will not create jobs without demand, no matter how many tax breaks you give them (unless you are actually paying them to hire workers, to the extent that the tax benefit or transfer payment is higher then the cost of the employee). Government can create jobs regardless of demand.

In reality, when the government creates a job, it is creating a job private industry wouldnt create, by extracting tax dollars from private business and citizens, and using it to make a job.

Those workers, when given income, will create demand, that demand will eventually push private industry in to creating more jobs.

[wheelsup]

One has to wonder however if 40 years ago the same people making $10-$12/hr out of college would not have gone to college. You go to college get an education and specialize in something that allows you to get a job doing something in that field. Graduating with a generic or worthless degree certainly doesn't make you more educated these days.

In college I started learning about web design on my own (no college classes on it). I got a hold of Frontpage and a few books and started putzing around. Then I moved on to Dreamweaver and search engine optimization, as well as light PHP programming. I didn't go to college for it or even take a course but I was making rent doing it on the side, certainly more than minimum wage (I charged $40-$50/hr).

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Private industry will not create jobs without demand, no matter how many tax breaks you give them (unless you are actually paying them to hire workers, to the extent that the tax benefit or transfer payment is higher then the cost of the employee). Government can create jobs regardless of demand.

In reality, when the government creates a job, it is creating a job private industry wouldnt create, by extracting tax dollars from private business and citizens, and using it to make a job.

Those workers, when given income, will create demand, that demand will eventually push private industry in to creating more jobs.

That makes sense if the Government was 100% efficient. But it is not. Money in the tax payers hands will be used much more effectively than in the Governments hands. The iPhone created a demand for many things, from cases to apps to accessories.

Private industry creates demand thru goods and services.

While the Government creates some jobs in the form of hiring out to build infrastructure, we can't and shouldn't rely on it to create jobs for our overall economy. Cutting tax and interest rates has always been the impetus to jumpstart the economy, not increasing tax rates (or simply printing money) to buy jobs.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

One has to wonder however if 40 years ago the same people making $10-$12/hr out of college would not have gone to college. You go to college get an education and specialize in something that allows you to get a job doing something in that field. Graduating with a generic or worthless degree certainly doesn't make you more educated these days.

The only people coming out of college making $10-$12 an hour are not just "liberal arts" or "art history" majors.

Randomdude- BSBA- Finance, class of 2004. Starting wage/job, $10/quality control assistant. Not only was I making $10 an hour, I couldnt even find a job in my field (which is highly employable nationally). The only reason why I got the job I did was based on my experience with Microsoft Excel.

[wheelsup]

I moved 1200 miles for my first job, graduated in a crummy environment in 2003. Sometimes you have to move, if your job is in demand throughout the US.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

That makes sense if the Government was 100% efficient. But it is not.

I completely agree with you. The government is a wasteful useless beauracracy which exists only to increase its own standing and the standing of its supporters.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Money in the tax payers hands will be used much more effectively than in the Governments hands.

If, by taxpayer, you mean businesses, not so much. It is unlikely private business will use tax savings to invest in human capital without underlying demand, especially in a poor economy.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

The iPhone created a demand for many things, from cases to apps to accessories.

It is far less likely for companies to invest in major projects in poor economies, regardless of their ability to fund it.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Private industry creates demand thru goods and services.

Demand is never created, only filled. In this case, Apple discovered a demand for such a product, created it, and people bought it. However, in down times, people arent nearly as likely to spend on frivolous goods, and therefore it makes investment and expansion far riskier and expensive to partake in.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

While the Government creates some jobs in the form of hiring out to build infrastructure, we can't and shouldn't rely on it to create jobs for our overall economy.

No, not depend on it completely, however, I think its perfectly smart to depend on it to be the spark in the powder keg.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Cutting tax and interest rates has always been the impetus to jumpstart the economy,

Trickle down economics, as professed by Reagan, did nothing other then magnify the gini index. The gini index stayed essentially the same from '67 to '81. From 81-89, the gini index grew steadily and had added .03 to the ratio and was at an over 30 year high when Reagan left office.

If jumped at the end of Bush 1, but Clinton kept it fairly steady through his complete term, until the reigns got handed to Bush 2, who oversaw another tremendous expansion of the gini index.

Cutting taxes for the rich and lowering interest rates does something alright, put more coin in wealthy pockets.

Originally Posted by wheelsup

not increasing tax rates (or simply printing money) to buy jobs.

Increasing tax rates and printing money with the associated inflation are not the ways to go either.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I moved 1200 miles for my first job, graduated in a crummy environment in 2003. Sometimes you have to move, if your job is in demand throughout the US.

At what point will you not be able to move though?