Low skill jobs pay less every year (adjusted to inflation) (credit card, sell)

[subsound]

Not really generalizing to myself, just making self depreciating comments that I did exactly what the commenter said was completely stupid and didn't get their assuredly predicted result. At no point did I ever state everyone would be like my situation, but it's what happened.

The point is made that people who get above high school education in undergrad situations or above only puts you in massive debt and I quote "Anyone who says that taking on more training at your own expense will improve your economic standing is a complete dult.". The aforementioned quote is an always positive conditional statement. There's nothing personal about it save I don't fit that condition, my wife does not fit that condition, many friends and family don't fit that condition...there is a great number of those who can point out in concrete terms without some vague reference to some research study or article of people I know nothing about that they don't fit the always true conditional.

I never said people would 100% double their income if they get a degree, I specifically said that if people choose to be unwise with their training, education and debt they will get in trouble just like the examples pointed out (I certainly know a few). However they are not the majority, and certainly not the rule. There are outliers that end up with $80,000 in debt with a useless degree, having great job and no debt is also an outlier...the middle road is not being represented. You can't say anything of either extreme with 100% certainty.

The big thing is people need to give a great deal of thought to the training, financing and seeing the end result before jumping in either way.

[wheelsup]

The days of simply getting a degree and writing your own ticket after graduation are over. Everyone has one now, so it's the equivalent of a high school diploma in most jobs.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by hindsight2020

He's referring to the people that keep touting go to college and when you find jack for work, go to grad school on your own dime again, and all of the sudden that's going to create demand for your skillset and a higher wage. That's the bunk argument that randomdude is highlighting. FAA licenses are certifications that are required to perform the job, there was nothing "it's be nice to have" about those. Now, having a college degree is not required to fly an airplane and what do you know? Every gear swinger out there in McAirport Wage land has one too. Now THAT's a negative return on investment.

Just tempering the discussion, when you apply the right context, that argument is hardly off the reservation.

If the career plan is simply to continue to go back to school until you land a job I would agree with your assessment. We all know a few people who have done/are doing that.

But the rational individual, having done a 2 or 4 year degree in a certain area of study, won't make the same mistake again and get another useless education.

Unless someone really specialized in their votec training their job won't disappear within 2-3 years of going back to school. Jobs have disappeared now, because our economy sucks, but that doesn't represent the overall trend.

[whydoucare?]

Originally Posted by subsound

Not really generalizing to myself, just making self depreciating comments that I did exactly what the commenter said was completely stupid and didn't get their assuredly predicted result. At no point did I ever state everyone would be like my situation, but it's what happened.

The point is made that people who get above high school education in undergrad situations or above only puts you in massive debt and I quote "Anyone who says that taking on more training at your own expense will improve your economic standing is a complete dult.". The aforementioned quote is an always positive conditional statement. There's nothing personal about it save I don't fit that condition, my wife does not fit that condition, many friends and family don't fit that condition...there is a great number of those who can point out in concrete terms without some vague reference to some research study or article of people I know nothing about that they don't fit the always true conditional.

I never said people would 100% double their income if they get a degree, I specifically said that if people choose to be unwise with their training, education and debt they will get in trouble just like the examples pointed out (I certainly know a few). However they are not the majority, and certainly not the rule. There are outliers that end up with $80,000 in debt with a useless degree, having great job and no debt is also an outlier...the middle road is not being represented. You can't say anything of either extreme with 100% certainty.

The big thing is people need to give a great deal of thought to the training, financing and seeing the end result before jumping in either way.

I agree 100% to what you are saying the middle is not being represented. I got tired of working low-paying jobs so I went back and finished college at age 28 and my salary has tripled and I didnt have much debt at all cause I made sure that my degree would not be "useless". My degree is in chemistry/microbiology and I have never had a problem getting a job and that is why I stress doing your research when choosing a major. I had a job before I finished my undergrad.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by subsound

Life doesn't work that way to me, correlation of higher education does not equal great amounts of debt and the same pay they would have had without it.

Actually, yes it does my friend. We have over twice as many people floating around with bachelors degrees then two generations ago, yet we are still making the exact same median wage, but with much higher debt, a huge amount of that, student debt.

We have been paying out of our own pockets, for the capitalists to assemble a more effective, knowledgeable, and intellegent workforce. At the same time, we have allowed the capitalist to begin requiring rediculous skill set requirements for jobs which do not need those skills. Finally, endless demand for the degree mill services have turned colleges in to businesses, rather then prestigious learning institutions. People who can barely read are getting into a majority of schools, simply because they can pony up the money. This is driving up the cost of school, and driving down the value.

We have not been rewarded with higher salaries. If we were, you would see a direct correlation of rising real median wage and education. This is simply not the case.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

The days of simply getting a degree and writing your own ticket after graduation are over. Everyone has one now, so it's the equivalent of a high school diploma in most jobs.

Which is why it should be free then. If a bachelors degree is a standard employment requirement (and it nearly is, since there are enough bachelors degree holders to cover over half the available jobs in the country, so likely, within 1 generation, there will be enough bachelors degree holders to cover all jobs availabe), it should be completely free, as a high school education is.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by whydoucare?

I agree 100% to what you are saying the middle is not being represented. I got tired of working low-paying jobs so I went back and finished college at age 28 and my salary has tripled and I didnt have much debt at all cause I made sure that my degree would not be "useless". My degree is in chemistry/microbiology and I have never had a problem getting a job and that is why I stress doing your research when choosing a major. I had a job before I finished my undergrad.

Yep, until microbiology becomes the flavor of the month, your profession gets flooded, and you watch the prevailing wage of your job get stomped in to the ground. Youll probably get laid off for someone working for 1/3 of your wage. But hey, you can always go back to school, throw the dart at the board again, at your own expense of course, and hope you get lucky.

Back in the mid 80's, you couldnt pay people to be computer scientists. In the mid to late 90's, when computer scientists were making 6 figures, everybody wanted to be a computer scientist. Then the tech bubble burst. Now computer scientists can be had for 50k a year, or even less, and there arent enough jobs after the H-1B's get their cuts, to cover all the new comp science grads. There are MANY comp science grads working some help desk for $12 an hour, with a 20-40k dollar education under their belt.

Oh wait, I get it, guy who went in to computer science chasing the bucks in 1996, should have looked in to his crystal ball, and saw the tech bubble pop, and changed his major immediatley!

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

But the rational individual, having done a 2 or 4 year degree in a certain area of study, won't make the same mistake again and get another useless education.

Actually, many would suggest just that, including tons of politicians. If your job goes away, or ends up flooded, you need to seek "retraining". "Retraining" is talking-head for "going back to school on your own dime, and throwing at the dart board again".

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Unless someone really specialized in their votec training their job won't disappear within 2-3 years of going back to school. Jobs have disappeared now, because our economy sucks, but that doesn't represent the overall trend.

Every job outside of very general professions is subject to dissapearing within a few years, and EVERY job is subject to being flooded within a few years.

The complete and total employment landscape can change within just a couple years. What happens to people who were dependent on some past employment landscape to guide their education choices? How many real estate finance grads, construction managment grads, architectual grads, and students of the building trades got completely screwed within just a couple years?

What do you suggest for them? "Retraining"? Underemployment in some craptastic position way below their skill level until something eventually opens in their field?

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by subsound

The point is made that people who get above high school education in undergrad situations or above only puts you in massive debt and I quote "Anyone who says that taking on more training at your own expense will improve your economic standing is a complete dult.". The aforementioned quote is an always positive conditional statement. There's nothing personal about it save I don't fit that condition, my wife does not fit that condition, many friends and family don't fit that condition...there is a great number of those who can point out in concrete terms without some vague reference to some research study or article of people I know nothing about that they don't fit the always true conditional.

Here is the thing dude, you are taking the statement wrong. One outlier of the statement does not invalidate it, a few outliers dont either. In fact, the only thing that could possibly invalidate that statement is when a large majority of people it doesnt apply to.

By saying "taking on additional training will improve your economic position", you would be implying that ANYONE, or surely an overwhelming majority, enough to make those who cant the statistical outliers, can improve their economic standing.

The fact is, many, maybe even a majority, of people, would not be served positively by seeking out training (when figuring in cost of training plus a minimal if any wage increase), and infact, may serve the dual purpose of dragging down the prevailing wage of those already in those professions theyre being trained for.

[wheelsup]

My father graduated with a history degree and writes proposals for Government contractors. He's gotten several advanced degrees "for fun". His job has nothing to do with his education and everything to do with his work experience.

I understand what you are saying. Unless you want the Government to select who does what in this country and limit the award of AA and BA degrees it will only get worse.

There was a survey from the ABA asking lawyers if they were happy they had gone to law school. The overwhelmingly majority said "NO", and were significantly in debt for what amounted to maybe $10k-$20k extra a year. After taxes and payment of student loans they were actually in the hole. However I would wager their income will increase as time goes on.

Some of the best (free) training out there IMO is the military. You get structure and excellent training in your specialty, and then receive significant amounts of money to go to college afterward. In fact I wish I had done it outside of high school. That's how my dad did it.

P.S. Ridiculous is spelled with an "i", not an "e" .