Nosey Dunn & Bradstreet (lease, fee, small business, collections)

[hargate]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

At least with CUTCO you purchased a tangible benefit which was good for proving that my techs could "fix a roast beef sandwhich" when required to do so.

Outside of the DUNS number for bidding purposes, my banker and insurance agent have enough information from my accountant to make good decisons about my business. I pay the lowest possible rates in the industry for my size/scale/scope of operations; D&B isn't going to get me a better rate. With an excellent personal credit record and a high FICA score, my insurance has been coming down for years when we review the rates each year.

I get a laugh out of the "come-on" vehicle insurance offers in the mail about how much they can "save" me over my current costs. Some of them would have to give me a rebate to match those numbers for my insurance ... and I insure 14 motor vehicles.

Congratulations on your low rates and low premiums. Your D&B must be in good order based off of what your vendors report. Remember this. Your banker and insurance agent love you because your company is helping put his kids through college. He/She does not set the parameters of what their respective corporations deem risky. They smile, shake your hand, take your check, and plug you into a matrix just like everyone else in their book of business.

What do you folks think the DUNS number is anyway? When you submit it on a bid, you are basically submitting your company's social. Granted, price eliminates some bids but the ones that are in the wheelhouse are gonna get pulled if the client is at all intelligent about how it all works. Nobody gives bad references and everybody has an excuse nowadays and that is why THIRD PARTY CREDIBILITY is becoming more and more important. Do you not want that prospect that you spent days preparing a bid for to get a picture of the true level your company is operating at? Unless every bid you submit is getting selected by committee you need to take a moment and consider why. Especially if you think your pricing was not of the "home run" variety. Me. If I have my choice between two firms submitting relatively similar pricing, I'm going with the one with the bigger supply lines, the longer history, and the higher scores just to show my boss I know how to get my company value for the same money. I would even print off the report and keep it with the file and cover my @ss just in case the proverbial shat hits the fan.

Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Am I the only one who considers it completely ludicrous to submit the DUNS number on a bid (or anything else) without having a clue what is on it. In Russia they have a game they call Roulette I equate that to. The problem is the tangibility of it because you never hear a bang or smell gunpowder. You just continue to operate and chalk that lost bid, rate of interest, or premium up to "size/scale/scope of operations" because some salesman...sold you.

Glad to hear things are going well. Just don't be so naive to think that it's all about the cool fishing stories you share. That Paydex drops below 60 and your company will feel it no matter how much your agent "likes" you. Seen it happen plenty. All it takes is one or two suppliers you cut off for pricing that get a little vindictive and you'll never know what hit ya.

Honestly. Is a few hundred bucks a year that much to spare for the average small business owner to make sure he's not getting jacked around by D&B or some random account he has set up? D&B keeps the lights on selling your reports not charging you to monitor it. It's already there. Any company can purchase it without your knowledge, and its the most trusted source of business information in the world. What it looks like is up to you...not D&B.

Also, the excuse will not be D&B when the news breaks about that premium or that rate of interest. It will be some other canned business world management/merger/economy/realignment jargon. Why would anyone tell someone else exactly how they are judged if more profits are made off of a picture of risk?

Just trying to shed a different perspective here. This decision should not be based entirely off of what you read in some random forum. Do the real research.

I did.

[sunsprit]

Originally Posted by hargate

Blah, Blah, Blah, ....

Just trying to shed a different perspective here. This decision should not be based entirely off of what you read in some random forum. Do the real research.

I did.

If you had any idea how little information D&B has on file for my little company, you'd come to appreciate how little value they bring to the table when my bids are presented.

I'm in a value added technical service business tied to product distribution that is a "relationship selling" based business. My clients solicit my bids because they know ... by word of mouth referrals throughout the respective industries I provide services to, and by pictures and documentation of successfully completed on time/on budget projects, or their own prior experience in dealing with my company ... that I can provide the services and end results that they require.

D&B doesn't bring any value to that type of business relationship, IMO. Larger, impersonal commodity services ... maybe; but not my small business.

From my perspective, D&B is pretty "bogus" when they persist in advising me that my report has changed due to my business activity and I should contact them immediately ... when I haven't transacted any business activity that would come onto their reporting system for far longer than the most recent time frame of their get in touch with them requests; ie, I'd been spending months completing my last projects with materials I had on hand or paid in full FOB before ever having the product shipped. I self financed, self bonded, and paid all of my fixed costs to do the project up front. There were no possible issues of payments due, creditors outstanding, shippers not paid, laborers not paid, etc. So any notice which I receive from D&B of an adverse situation is purely fictional upon their part, and I've taken my time to follow up on their inquiries several times only to verify that exact result.

Therein is the problem I see with your perspective on this D&B value in the marketplace, hargate ... you're trying to categorize "small" and "indpendent" businesses into the same box as big outfits that require a large cash flow to sustain their operations and need D&B's services to be competitive and successful. For most of us small businesses, it's simply not so.

[hargate]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

If you had any idea how little information D&B has on file for my little company, you'd come to appreciate how little value they bring to the table when my bids are presented.

I'm in a value added technical service business tied to product distribution that is a "relationship selling" based business. My clients solicit my bids because they know ... by word of mouth referrals throughout the respective industries I provide services to, and by pictures and documentation of successfully completed on time/on budget projects, or their own prior experience in dealing with my company ... that I can provide the services and end results that they require.

D&B doesn't bring any value to that type of business relationship, IMO. Larger, impersonal commodity services ... maybe; but not my small business.

From my perspective, D&B is pretty "bogus" when they persist in advising me that my report has changed due to my business activity and I should contact them immediately ... when I haven't transacted any business activity that would come onto their reporting system for far longer than the most recent time frame of their get in touch with them requests; ie, I'd been spending months completing my last projects with materials I had on hand or paid in full FOB before ever having the product shipped. I self financed, self bonded, and paid all of my fixed costs to do the project up front. There were no possible issues of payments due, creditors outstanding, shippers not paid, laborers not paid, etc. So any notice which I receive from D&B of an adverse situation is purely fictional upon their part, and I've taken my time to follow up on their inquiries several times only to verify that exact result.

Therein is the problem I see with your perspective on this D&B value in the marketplace, hargate ... you're trying to categorize "small" and "indpendent" businesses into the same box as big outfits that require a large cash flow to sustain their operations and need D&B's services to be competitive and successful. For most of us small businesses, it's simply not so.

I'm not here to argue or convince. Especially someone who paraphrases accurate information and logically drawn conclusions and possibilities as "blah blah blah".

I am asuming your firm is incorporated in some fashion for protection. If not, you are a sole proprietor and you most likely don't need D&B. If so however, why are you personally guaranteeing funds, paying COD/FOB and self insuring?

Using other peoples money is how a person grows a business assuming they have all the other attributes in place like a decent product, responsible accounting, and an aggresive prospecting/marketing plan.

If that is not where your firm is at, then why are you even trying to argue the facts.

Does that note once a quarter really bother you that much? Any of your vendors can report on you at any time. Sure you know how you are paying your bills, you just don't know what is actually reported. That disconnect is where most companies lose money in the long run.

"Small" is a relative term. Industry plays a large role too. Owner Operators who employ one and a truck and have one account in the form of a Fuel Man card use DnB religioulsy for example.

My point is that anyone who is knowingly submitting access to a trusted source that companies use to decide what bid will be accepted (among other things) and has no idea what that report says about their company is not thinking things through very well. Especially when it is FREE to view online and FREE to dispute any information you don't fully understand when you view it.

Fact: Companies are cutting costs
Fact: Large companies especially wholesalers and distributors usually have a credit management department.
Fact: An annual contract to pull unlimited annual reports from D&B is available
Fact: That contract is faster, more accurate, and way more cost effective than a team of ladies running down manually submitted business references on a credit app filled out and analyzed by hand.
--note: while not every report is completely representative, Credit Managers justify the changeover by knowing that business owners are responsible for their reports and if they are not taking an active role in what their company's commercial accountability looks like....oh well.

Fact: The renewal rate for contract customers with D&B is just under 90%!

...times they are a changin

You may own a niche firm in a niche market and do not see the importance partly because you don't fully understand what you are talking about. But just how helpful do you think your comments are to those that are lurking and could use D&B because they are in not such a specialized situation and their operation is a little larger and they understand the concept of using credit (which is 30 day terms to D&B btw) to manage cashflow? Do yu feel better by putting on your cape and saving everybody a few hundred bucks over the life of their business? I wonder how much you actually cost them in the process?

Thank you for your comments.

EDIT: I almost forgot. For smallish firms with very little credit established on their report, it's actually more important to check in once in a while. The reason why you get score change notifications is that there is so little information in your report (almost always less than what you have actually established) that the slightest hiccup reported by your vendors (which include things like radio/telephone communications and internet providers) can cause a huge swing in scoring.

The D&B/Business owner relationship is not nearly as adversarial as people think if you can ever get over the fear that you have right now and actually have a fair conversation with the rep.

Again, this is your credit. They aren't selling Cutco...something you actually can afford to wait on.

[sunsprit]

hargate, you're still in that same rut of "all businesses must follow a large business model" in order to be successful. Hence, they require the beneficial services that are essentially only provided by the company you're touting here.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not incorporated in the service business I own, and yes, I'm a sole proprietor with a niche business in a niche market. And I get a laugh out of your asserting that if I'm not incorporated, that my business is of little consequence, so we're back to your "big business" model of values.

I'm not going to argue with you about the results of my business values; I know when to spend money to benefit my small business and when not to do so. You're so stuck in a rut of values that can only see that "bigger is better" that you apparently don't understand small business needs at all. I can stay small, responsive to my client's requirements, get bonding and insurance for larger projects when needed ... and then retreat to my smaller efficient operating level when I don't need to "staff up" and mobilize for a larger project. That's the beauty of what I do, and allows me to be exceptionally competitive on bids when I'm not carrying a lot of inefficient overhead/staffing that's got to be paid for all the time from a large cash flow.

So, I'm not going to argue with you about your business model and the perceived benefits of the company you're touting here. I'm only going to assert that your perception of how business works simply doesn't apply to everyone's business, and the D&B company doesn't add value to what a lot of us do.

[hargate]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

hargate, you're still in that same rut of "all businesses must follow a large business model" in order to be successful. Hence, they require the beneficial services that are essentially only provided by the company you're touting here.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not incorporated in the service business I own, and yes, I'm a sole proprietor with a niche business in a niche market. And I get a laugh out of your asserting that if I'm not incorporated, that my business is of little consequence, so we're back to your "big business" model of values.

I'm not going to argue with you about the results of my business values; I know when to spend money to benefit my small business and when not to do so. You're so stuck in a rut of values that can only see that "bigger is better" that you apparently don't understand small business needs at all. I can stay small, responsive to my client's requirements, get bonding and insurance for larger projects when needed ... and then retreat to my smaller efficient operating level when I don't need to "staff up" and mobilize for a larger project. That's the beauty of what I do, and allows me to be exceptionally competitive on bids when I'm not carrying a lot of inefficient overhead/staffing that's got to be paid for all the time from a large cash flow.

So, I'm not going to argue with you about your business model and the perceived benefits of the company you're touting here. I'm only going to assert that your perception of how business works simply doesn't apply to everyone's business, and the D&B company doesn't add value to what a lot of us do.

I never insenuated that a sole proprietorship is "of little consequence". I said that they most likely do not need D&B.

Nothing I mentioned referenced big business solely. The large distributors I spoke of were the suppliers to small business that are using new methods to judge you that cost them less.

To maximise profit you shop pricing right. The larger the distributor is that sometimes tout the best pricing through volume, the more apt they are to view your D&B. That is all I'm saying.

For the record, I have a small business that is service/information related that I do not buy any materials or supplies for and while D&B is not vital to my existence, it does elevate me to another competitive level in some arenas that I am trying to crack and is the cheapest advertising money I have ever spent.

I appreciate your candidness and your point of view. I struggled with it before doing a ton of research. The point everyone should get is that just because you are small (by your own personal standards) it does not mean that you are off the radar and the report cannot effect you. It does not hurt to talk to a rep, explore scenarios, double-check the information you receive and then make an informed decision.

Again, all that is free.

[Philip T]

So then, if I am tracking all this correctly -- hargate is some sort of sales manager for D&B?

And sunspirit seems to have a clue.

And that equals No Sale? Ok, that makes sense.

hargate, I follow you follow the corporate pitch. The problem is your product and premise. First is that one gets rich "with other people's money." THAT is how one gets into debt. Dumb idea. Your operation reeks of 1990's thinking so bad you might as well be wearing leisure suits so that when you all look in the mirror you can know the time has passed.

Look, everyone in Federal Contracting is required to have the scammy D&B ID number to have the scammy listing. But that is not a "service." All it means is that D&B paid someone(s) in Congress to get it written into Federal Procurement law. That makes D&B about as respectable as . . . say . . . Halliburton. (which are absolute scum). But as long as we, the small business contractors, so listed, are not charged for your scam, we just roll our eyes and play along.

But to think that you provide anything of value to us is where your error is. I follow on the sales end, it does not really matter if you do or not, just so you can sell the make-believe. But eventually you run out of folks who are dumber than the game and just hang up on you all.

[hargate]

Originally Posted by Philip T

So then, if I am tracking all this correctly -- hargate is some sort of sales manager for D&B?

And sunspirit seems to have a clue.

And that equals No Sale? Ok, that makes sense.

hargate, I follow you follow the corporate pitch. The problem is your product and premise. First is that one gets rich "with other people's money." THAT is how one gets into debt. Dumb idea. Your operation reeks of 1990's thinking so bad you might as well be wearing leisure suits so that when you all look in the mirror you can know the time has passed.

Look, everyone in Federal Contracting is required to have the scammy D&B ID number to have the scammy listing. But that is not a "service." All it means is that D&B paid someone(s) in Congress to get it written into Federal Procurement law. That makes D&B about as respectable as . . . say . . . Halliburton. (which are absolute scum). But as long as we, the small business contractors, so listed, are not charged for your scam, we just roll our eyes and play along.

But to think that you provide anything of value to us is where your error is. I follow on the sales end, it does not really matter if you do or not, just so you can sell the make-believe. But eventually you run out of folks who are dumber than the game and just hang up on you all.

sales manager for D&B.......LOL

I think its much easier for some business owners to stick their head in the sand and excuse it with a politically corrupt conspiracy theory than to examine what the facts are and even go so far as throwing one of the most politically corrupt companies in the history of this nation in as window dressing/shock factor because they have never properly researched the facts themselves and it makes them all feel warm a cuddly.

Other peoples money is how you grow, now and always. To look at it as debt and nothing more is almost as small-minded and simpleton as I have ever encountered and speaks volumes at what opinion you have of your personal abilities when/if presented an opportunity.

Actually Phillip T. You just proved my above theory precisely. Thanks. Enjoy the view from under the sand.

Why do I care right? It's not my business. I thought the forum was a medium for different perspectives. Guess I was wrong. When actually presented with facts and legit rationale that flies in the face of your rage against the machine agenda, you resort to personal attacks and wrap yourself in the flag of the political victim.

....great site

[sunsprit]

Originally Posted by hargate

sales manager for D&B.......LOL

I think its much easier for some business owners to stick their head in the sand .......

Other peoples money is how you grow, now and always. To look at it as debt and nothing more is almost as small-minded and simpleton as I have ever encountered and speaks volumes at what opinion you have of your personal abilities when/if presented an opportunity.

Absolutely, Hargate, absolutely .... and I think I'm getting to know a business owner here who has "stuck his head in the sand".

you've again reinforced my perception that you don't have a clue about a successful small business model for many of us, and you believe that a small business has no better goal than to "grow larger" using leveraged money.

While I'm sure that many over-educated financial/business analysts can show me how I'm wasting money by owning the tools of my business and a substantial product inventory (paid for FOB before it ever left the manufacturer) ... a lot of working capital "tied up" in my business instead of being invested somewhere else with a "better ROI" .....

But I've assured my business that I have immediate access to the specialized tools and equipment required for my work, allowing me to be instantly responsive to my client's needs (for the projects I care to take on). I've had the tooling long enough to have depreciated it down to zero.

I have seen too many competitors (and other small businesses) try to grow past an efficient model for what we do, and borrow to expand operations to a "next step". All of a sudden, they're tied to a large office/staff and sales reps, company benefit plans and significant insurance costs. This all takes a lot of cash flow to support beyond the hard costs of providing services and goods. And, they've found themselves in a "middle ground" where the overhead and debt service is the gorilla in their midst ... the original owners/investors are now working their butts off for less actual income then when they were smaller and efficient. In some cases, the increased overhead and fixed expenses have destroyed the company ... they've gone bankrupt, or in some cases ... started cutting corners on their service and products to a point where their clients are dissatisfied (with cause) over the final work product.

Implicit in my personal decision to stay operating at a smaller scale is the reality that I'll never make $millions per year, as I might have done if I'd have ramped up to a national presence size company. I can live with that decision, it's OK by me and mine. Large scale incomes don't mean that much to me.

I've paid for my farm/ranch, my second home in a Colorado ski resort, my vehicles, airplane, boats, motorcycles, and all the other "toys" we wanted. No debt carried here, and none wanted. When the economy cycles up, I'm in a position to aggressively seek new business and continue to service my existing clients; when the economy cycles down, I'm able to do what I want without worries. Can you say the same, Hargate?

[BklynTom]

I am an owner of a small tech start up in lower NYC. Our revenues are about 1M per year. We have been around for about 3 1/2 years. Recently, I filled for a D&B number and now, I find that Dunn and Brad have made my company information public for about $40.00. Basically, my competitors, VC's and anyone looking for private information can just click and purchase. Additionally, I typed my company's name into Google recently and I found that Dunn and Brad have placed an advertisement next to my search results with the question, "would you offer this company credit"? Do I really need that?

I am a start up company Founder/Owner struggling every day to try to make payroll, pay my bills, taxes, and dealing with a miserable excuse of an economy. Frankly, this Dunn and Brad marketing scheme does not help and it is nothing but an additional obstacle that a small business owner has to deal with everyday. It is not right that they are using our private information for their financial gain.

[David Crawford]

I found this blog because I have been so pestered by D&B that they are making me furious and I wanted to see if anyone else is in the same position. I purchased their minimum package almost a year ago and at about 6 months they started the hard sell. They call my cell, my office phone and email at least once a week. I have tried being nice and I have tried being rude and yet they still call. Now they call and leave voicemail messages, prefacing them with my first name like we are old friends, then try to put some scare in like there has been a significant change to my rating or that there have been some questionable inquiries to my account. I always write back in and tell them to put it in writing, but it never happens. When they do catch me unaware and I answer the phone, the start the hard sell again. Their service does absolutely nothing for my business and I do not want anything to do with them. Does anyone know how to make them go away???