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Old 08-04-2010, 11:25 PM
 
Location: West Coast Wanderer
12,761 posts, read 10,811,497 times
Reputation: 6093

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Ok montclair, I'm going to pick on you but it's because I'm just in that mood now. You're accusing those of you whom you disagree with being extreme and pretending to be ignorant.

Quote:
Please. You and your fellow marriage-for-anyone crowd, please spare me any more feigned ignorance. Its getting real boring and your only insulting your own intelligence.
Pretending to be ignorant? What the living hell? Why would you say something like that?

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This thread is a perfect example of the leftist and right wing hypocrisy and refusal to conversate that I have pointed out time and time again.
So, becasue the right and left have actually come together on something we're being extremist? Isn't that not being extremist? BTW, conversate is not a word lol

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Does anyone know of a group or movement that agrees with my solution? Id really be interested.
Doubtful. Most people are either for or against equal rights; not a passifier to make the religiously insecure comfortable.

 
Old 08-04-2010, 11:26 PM
 
Location: West Coast Wanderer
12,761 posts, read 10,811,497 times
Reputation: 6093
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
What part of my comment indicates that I don't want equality for all?
You said that you are all for equal rights but gave an exception. If there's an exception, then you're not all for it.

on second thought, I'd better be more clear than this:

Quote:
Unfortunately in this particular instance, the law and faith collide
It was this line right here. Now how does this equate to being all for equal rights? Because certain faiths collide with it we should make this exception? I don't get it.
 
Old 08-04-2010, 11:28 PM
 
221 posts, read 209,073 times
Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
The issue itself aside, my thought is that if the will of the people can be overturned by a court or several courts then this is no longer a country of, by and for the people. That is not the freedom several generations of my family have fought for, myself and a son included, and some have died for.

On balance, we are truly a republic and not a democracy and that's not necessarily a bad thing!
Doesn't the fact that we are a republic, almost by definition, mean we are *not* and ultimately never were "of the people, by the people and for the people"?

So I'm wondering how, on one hand you seem to be "of, by and for the people"... but saying also that a republic isn't a bad thing?

Of course the bottom line come down to one question, "How to we balance the rights of everyone?"

Tough question to answer, equally tough to fashion a process to achieve.
 
Old 08-04-2010, 11:29 PM
 
99 posts, read 117,010 times
Reputation: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
Please. You and your fellow marriage-for-anyone crowd, please spare me any more feigned ignorance. Its getting real boring and your only insulting your own intelligence.

This thread is a perfect example of the leftist and right wing hypocrisy and refusal to conversate that I have pointed out time and time again.

I've stated 3 times that marriage needs to be taken out of civil law.

I've stated 3 times that all couples, gay or straight, should enter into legally binding civil unions with all the rights currently only given to married straight couples.

Hardly a peep in response to this.

Why? Because truth be told, this isnt about compromise or dialogue because you don't want that. Each side simply wants to stick it to the other side.

And I am looking for a movement of like-minded folks that are willing to set aside differences and hash out a real solution.

Does anyone know of a group or movement that agrees with my solution? Id really be interested.
I understand where you are coming from but I am sure you know most people who really do not support the separation of church and state see civil unions for all just as radical as marriage for all. Most on the political right would not change the name of their civil arrangement in the name of equality.
 
Old 08-04-2010, 11:30 PM
 
221 posts, read 209,073 times
Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by krudmonk View Post
The will of the people or the wrath of the mob?
Does it matter? This is one of the things the founding fathers tried to have a check against.

Google on "Tyranny of the Masses" or "Tyranny of the Majority".

Of course the other side of the coin is "Tyranny of the elite", LOL!
 
Old 08-04-2010, 11:31 PM
 
Location: West Coast Wanderer
12,761 posts, read 10,811,497 times
Reputation: 6093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmadison2 View Post
Doesn't the fact that we are a republic, almost by definition, mean we are *not* and ultimately never were "of the people, by the people and for the people"?

So I'm wondering how, on one hand you seem to be "of, by and for the people"... but saying also that a republic isn't a bad thing?

Of course the bottom line come down to one question, "How to we balance the rights of everyone?"

Tough question to answer, equally tough to fashion a process to achieve.
I like how so many in this country use the republic as a crutch. We're a federation first and foremost meaning what happened today in a state is exactly the way things should work.
 
Old 08-04-2010, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Pasadena
7,413 posts, read 3,373,546 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
What part of my comment indicates that I don't want equality for all?
Montclair, your comments on gay marriage seem so out of character with your usual statements regarding humankind, politics and the world in general. I think this issue is your achilles heel and it seems pointless to continue arguing with you since that is something none of us have ever had to do with you. I have been wrong on many things and have benefited from the feedback from others even when I didn't want to hear it. Your religous faith is obviously very important to you but when it comes to dealing with what is right for our fellow citizens and families, religion fails us.
 
Old 08-04-2010, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
25,080 posts, read 32,528,473 times
Reputation: 10651
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternGulf View Post
I understand where you are coming from but I am sure you know most people who really do not support the separation of church and state see civil unions for all just as radical as marriage for all. Most on the political right would not change the name of their civil arrangement in the name of equality.
Thank you.

I agree about the right not wanting to change their civil arrangement.

I've been looking for months for a website or grass roots organization(anything) that wants what I want...and so far nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo
It was this line right here. Now how does this equate to being all for equal rights? Because certain faiths collide with it we should make this exception? I don't get it.
Oh.

What I meant is, I don't really view this as an issue of the law but rather an issue of faith and so while I really dislike mixing church and state, when the occasion arises where I must choose between the two, my faith will always win.

This is why 2 Million Democrats who voted for Barack Obama also voted Yes on 8.

The solution is to not be put in a position to make such a choice in the first place.
 
Old 08-04-2010, 11:40 PM
 
Location: West Coast Wanderer
12,761 posts, read 10,811,497 times
Reputation: 6093
Quote:
Originally Posted by californio sur View Post
Montclair, your comments on gay marriage seem so out of character with your usual statements regarding humankind, politics and the world in general. I think this issue is your achilles heel and it seems pointless to continue arguing with you since that is something none of us have ever had to do with you. I have been wrong on many things and have benefited from the feedback from others even when I didn't want to hear it. Your religous faith is obviously very important to you but when it comes to dealing with what is right for our fellow citizens and families, religion fails us.
+1 Glad I could rep you for this because you are so right.
 
Old 08-04-2010, 11:43 PM
 
Location: West Coast Wanderer
12,761 posts, read 10,811,497 times
Reputation: 6093
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
Thank you.

I agree about the right not wanting to change their civil arrangement.

I've been looking for months for a website or grass roots organization(anything) that wants what I want...and so far nothing.


Oh.

What I meant is, I don't really view this as an issue of the law but rather an issue of faith and so while I really dislike mixing church and state, when the occasion arises where I must choose between the two, my faith will always win.

This is why 2 Million Democrats who voted for Barack Obama also voted Yes on 8.

The solution is to not be put in a position to make such a choice in the first place.
Well, as I said before, this is why I have refused to affiliate with a church anymore. I no longer want my opinions based on others opinions. Christianity is just not about this but one can only see that once one disassociates with churches.

As Cal Sur has said, perhaps it's best to leave you alone on this one as I will not have a faith based discussion because I don't want to **** anyone off and trust me I will. I still respect you and I hope we can go back to our usual C-D partnership.
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