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Old 12-23-2010, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Pasadena
7,413 posts, read 2,812,433 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Emma Smith stayed with Joseph from the time they were married until his death. She never left him. She remained behind at the time the Reorganized Church split because she did not like Brigham Young, the new leader of the her husband had founded. Polygamy was not, at that time, illegal anywhere in the United States. There is absolutely no point to anything you are saying. Your personal opinion of Joseph Smith has nothing to do with the OP and you failed to post anything from the Book of Mormon that supports your point of view.

That is absolutely ridiculous. It is a well-doumented fact that Joseph Smith and his brother were murdered by a mob. Any legitimate historian, LDS or otherwise, would attest to that, and the actual individual who was responsible for organizing the mob was never identified. You're entitled to your own opinion about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon and Mormonism, but you are not entitled to your own "facts."

Keep this up, and I can guarantee that this thread will end up getting closed. Is that what you really want out of this discussion?
The Mormon Church teamed up with Roman Catholics [I am a catholic btw] to impose their perverted distortion of Christianity onto California. That in it's self is just one example of how some "good Christians" are anything but "good" and in-fact are some of the most evil and hate-filled people in America. Any church that willingly condemns a person for just being who they are and at no fault of their own because they happen to love someone of their own gender is overtly dangerous to society. It is no wonder that the ACLU now lists some Mormon and Catholic organizations as “hate groups”. Sorry to offend you but Christians can be criminal when they apply their hypocritical standard of morality on a secular nation. But as I pointed out, not all Christian denominations are like Catholics, Mormon, Baptists, etc. Those churches that have asked for forgiveness over the utter damage they have wreaked upon innocent people are the “true” followers of Christ in my opinion.
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:29 PM
 
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 2,867,823 times
Reputation: 2622
Yes, Emma stayed, that is common knowledge, but, she wasn't happy about her husband. Ok, here is a quote from the BoM on Polygamy;
Quote:
Jacob 2:27
Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.
oops. I find it striking that Smith first came out strongly against polygamy, but later changed his mind, that inconsistency would seem to me to be a problem, apparently not though.

Huh, regarding the death of Joseph Smith. There are a number of colorful events in the history of the Mormon Church that have been fairly well obfuscated, and are indeed beyond the scope of this thread. If you know the history of the church, you know the name of the man and why he shot Smith. The church has an official explanation for the event, and the other colorful events.

The relationship of the Mormon church to this thread relates to the efforts and dollars spent to defeat Prop 8. If a church enters the political arena, then it too becomes part of the discussion.

The German Army in WW2 reacted to attacks with counter attacks, they seldom backed up in retreat without a counter attack. This is a lesson the Mormon church learned well, to whit:
Quote:
keep this up, and I can guarantee that this thread will end up getting closed. Is that what you really want out of this discussion?
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,636 posts, read 8,806,269 times
Reputation: 4423
Quote:
Originally Posted by californio sur View Post
The Mormon Church teamed up with Roman Catholics [I am a catholic btw] to impose their perverted distortion of Christianity onto California. That in it's self is just one example of how some "good Christians" are anything but "good" and in-fact are some of the most evil and hate-filled people in America. Any church that willingly condemns a person for just being who they are and at no fault of their own because they happen to love someone of their own gender is overtly dangerous to society. It is no wonder that the ACLU now lists some Mormon and Catholic organizations as “hate groups”. Sorry to offend you but Christians can be criminal when they apply their hypocritical standard of morality on a secular nation. But as I pointed out, not all Christian denominations are like Catholics, Mormon, Baptists, etc. Those churches that have asked for forgiveness over the utter damage they have wreaked upon innocent people are the “true” followers of Christ in my opinion.
I hadn't actually responded to any of your posts, so you don't need to assume that I was offended by anything you personally said. Incidentally, I was very much opposed to my Church's efforts with respect to Proposition 8. Had I been living in California, I would definitely not have done as my Church asked its members to do. So, what it really gets down to isn't that "not all Christian denominations are like Catholics, Mormons, Baptists," but that not all Catholic, Mormon and Baptist individuals are the same.
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,636 posts, read 8,806,269 times
Reputation: 4423
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
Yes, Emma stayed, that is common knowledge, but, she wasn't happy about her husband.
Not many women would be, but if she hadn't believed he was doing what God had told him to do, she could have left him easily enough. By the way, does your opinion of individuals who have practiced polygamy extend to the numerous Old Testament prophets who also did so, or do you reserve your contempt for Joseph Smith alone? I mean, seriously, why on earth would you care how many women he married?

Quote:
Ok, here is a quote from the BoM on Polygamy; oops. I find it striking that Smith first came out strongly against polygamy, but later changed his mind, that inconsistency would seem to me to be a problem, apparently not though.
"Oops" is right. Funny that you posted only one verse and then stopped where it went on to say that there may be times when God would authorize it. I love your debating style. It's so full of holes it's not even funny.

Quote:
Huh, regarding the death of Joseph Smith. There are a number of colorful events in the history of the Mormon Church that have been fairly well obfuscated, and are indeed beyond the scope of this thread. If you know the history of the church, you know the name of the man and why he shot Smith. The church has an official explanation for the event, and the other colorful events.
Trust me. I know the history of the Church, and you evidently don't. Joseph Smith was shot six times, by a number of different individuals. This is a historical fact, and your trying to put a different spin on it is pointless when I could post literally dozens of links (not all of them from LDS sources) that proved a mob was involved.

Quote:
The relationship of the Mormon church to this thread relates to the efforts and dollars spent to defeat Prop 8. If a church enters the political arena, then it too becomes part of the discussion.
Well then, why don't you stick to what's relevant? Nothing about Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon has any bearing on Propoisition 8. You're the one who is hijacking this thread. If you continue to post irrelevant, fabricated stories, I'm going to continue to refute them. The thread will get closed and neither of us will be able to say anything else. Stick to discussing Proposition 8 and you probably won't hear from me again since I was personally opposed to my Church's efforts to defeat it.
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:25 PM
 
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 2,867,823 times
Reputation: 2622
Hey, did I bring up mormons? As a long time resident of Deseret, and as a matter of historical curiosity, I have looked into Mormonism in some depth. I am one of the few gentiles who has actually read the BoM, or at least, right now I am half way through it. An incredible book.

As I mentioned the mormon church has a colorful history, I am not only familiar with the actual facts of much of that history, but I am also familiar with the mormon version.

I am not anti mormon, but, I am particular about the use of reason.
Back to Prop 8 and the mormons, Sarah Palin was rather shocked at the attention paid to every aspect of her life once she was chosen to be John McCain's running mate, once she entered the public political arena (Alaska doesn't really count, nobody much cares about what happens up there).
The morman church jumped into the political arena with both feet. It should come as no shock that every aspect of the Church is examined.
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Pasadena
7,413 posts, read 2,812,433 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I hadn't actually responded to any of your posts, so you don't need to assume that I was offended by anything you personally said. Incidentally, I was very much opposed to my Church's efforts with respect to Proposition 8. Had I been living in California, I would definitely not have done as my Church asked its members to do. So, what it really gets down to isn't that "not all Christian denominations are like Catholics, Mormons, Baptists," but that not all Catholic, Mormon and Baptist individuals are the same.
I am the one who brought up the Mormon church though to be honest I have never read the Book of Mormon. Bill Maher\ HBO occasionally discusses Mormonism and not in a positive light at all. Also his movie, "Religulous" slammed the Mormon faith as well as most religous denominations. But I do agree with you that just being a Mormon or Catholic doesn't mean that the person believes the same as the official position of the church. For example, I will go with my family to mass on Christmas eve at the cathedral in downtown LA. I may detest Cardinal Mahony's actions regarding pedophile priests but will not let that crime interfere with celebrating Christmas. I was outraged like many Catholics, however, when it became known that the Catholic church was secretly funneling money to the Mormons in order to fight gay marriage. The money was dirt just like the very priests who sexually assaulted young altar boys. I have no respect for the clergy though I know many are decent guys. But I will never donate money to the church but instead give to certain groups who are working with the poor. The damage the Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, evangelical Christians have done to America can not be forgiven until they own up to what they have done to innocent people.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,636 posts, read 8,806,269 times
Reputation: 4423
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
As I mentioned the mormon church has a colorful history, I am not only familiar with the actual facts of much of that history, but I am also familiar with the mormon version.
Likewise, I am not only familiar with the actual facts; I stick to them -- whether they reflect positively or negatively on the Church.

Quote:
The morman church jumped into the political arena with both feet. It should come as no shock that every aspect of the Church is examined.
Examining every aspect of the Church is one thing. Misrepresenting the Church's history to make a point is something else entirely.

Now how about we get back to the OP and stop trying to pretend that things that aren't pertinent to the discussion are.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:23 PM
 
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 2,867,823 times
Reputation: 2622
Quote:
Now how about we get back to the OP and stop trying to pretend that things that aren't pertinent to the discussion are
Well, sport, do try and not tell me what to do, you are not a Danite,,,,,, or are you?
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Old 12-24-2010, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
47,354 posts, read 37,345,023 times
Reputation: 19514
Quote:
Originally Posted by californio sur View Post
Christianity is also rejecting the bigotry of it's own teachings. Two of the largest and historic Christian denominations: Lutherans and Episcopalians not only perform marriages for gay couples but also allow their clergy\ bishops to be gay and in a gay marriage. Ironically the Christian denominations most opposed to homosexuality [namely the Roman Catholic, Mormon, Baptists, evangelicals] have pedophile priests\ overtly prejudice histories, hypocritical ministers caught in gay & drug sex What rationale person would ever view these perverted so-called Christians as authorities on anything? Ever read the book of Mormon or study the sex lives of the popes?
How little you know about religion. The Epsicopalians do, indeed have gay bishops and clergy, but most clery will not marry gays, so you are all off base there. As for the Lutherians, that depends as well. There are 3 arms or synods of the church. The United Lutherian is liberal and much like the Episcopal church, the MO synod is to the right of middle and does not ordain, marry or recognize gays and the WS synod is totally to the right. They do not even allow women to be ushers or serve on any planning committes, nor do they allow holy Communion to anyone that is not part of the WS synod, or the majority of the WS Synod feels this way. You might be better off if you did your homework. We are X Episcopalins and have a good friend that is a priest. He is gay, but is not in a relationship. We are Lutherians now and have studied all the synods before deciding which one came closest to fitting our overall views.

Nita
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Old 12-24-2010, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
47,354 posts, read 37,345,023 times
Reputation: 19514
Quote:
Originally Posted by californio sur View Post
I am the one who brought up the Mormon church though to be honest I have never read the Book of Mormon. Bill Maher\ HBO occasionally discusses Mormonism and not in a positive light at all. Also his movie, "Religulous" slammed the Mormon faith as well as most religous denominations. But I do agree with you that just being a Mormon or Catholic doesn't mean that the person believes the same as the official position of the church. For example, I will go with my family to mass on Christmas eve at the cathedral in downtown LA. I may detest Cardinal Mahony's actions regarding pedophile priests but will not let that crime interfere with celebrating Christmas. I was outraged like many Catholics, however, when it became known that the Catholic church was secretly funneling money to the Mormons in order to fight gay marriage. The money was dirt just like the very priests who sexually assaulted young altar boys. I have no respect for the clergy though I know many are decent guys. But I will never donate money to the church but instead give to certain groups who are working with the poor. The damage the Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, evangelical Christians have done to America can not be forgiven until they own up to what they have done to innocent people.
OH God and you beleive anything Bill Maher says? And yes, many of us have our religious beliefs but do not agree 100% with our particular church. It is finding what comes the closest to what we believe or can live with.

Nita
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