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Old 08-23-2010, 12:35 PM
 
11,726 posts, read 24,759,741 times
Reputation: 7136

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
This was already addressed pre-Prop 13... the Serrano Decision forever changed the way California Public School funding.

California was already sued over school funding and Prop 13 come about in part because of this... read the Serrano Decision.

Basically, Serrano set up a system where money from one district could be used in another district... Serrano shifted school funding basically to the State...

How about a return to the pre Serrano days where local districts funded local schools?

California School Board Association is paid to represents only one side... and it is not necessarily in the best interests of the Students...
Yet another example of where trying to make everyone equal just makes everyone mediocre and grows the bureaucracy in the process.
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:38 PM
 
14,207 posts, read 26,395,221 times
Reputation: 8370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highnlite View Post
A couple of points here, I have three kids in University, all products of the California public school system. The youngest scored a 5 out of 5 on AP calculus test, and 4's on the other AP tests.

California schools do a great job, the stats are brought down because of the number of at risk students in CA.

So you want a private school education for your child? Let me set up a little analogy for you. You have a line of work, whatever it is, you are trained for that work, perhaps a license program, trades apprenticeship, university education. You do good work.

Now, a person opens a similar shop down the street. They have no training in your field, they have no license or diploma or credential and are willing to work for half of what you make.

Do you think they will be as good as you? Would you send anyone to them for that work?

Well, that is private school. No credential needed, pay is usually about half what public school teachers make. My question has always been, why are they willing to work for half pay? Generally because they are pushing an ideology, not necessarily focused on a quality education.

Now, you may say, "harrummph, public school teachers are overpaid anyway" But if you did that, you would be admitting you don't know what the heck you are talking about.
Private Schools vary... it's not fair to say they are inferior and many private college prep schools do very well and often exceed the performance of local public schools...

Don't kid yourself... not everyone teaching in Public School is credentialed either...
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:56 PM
 
2,651 posts, read 3,179,911 times
Reputation: 1830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highnlite View Post
A couple of points here, I have three kids in University, all products of the California public school system. The youngest scored a 5 out of 5 on AP calculus test, and 4's on the other AP tests.

California schools do a great job, the stats are brought down because of the number of at risk students in CA.

So you want a private school education for your child? Let me set up a little analogy for you. You have a line of work, whatever it is, you are trained for that work, perhaps a license program, trades apprenticeship, university education. You do good work.

Now, a person opens a similar shop down the street. They have no training in your field, they have no license or diploma or credential and are willing to work for half of what you make.

Do you think they will be as good as you? Would you send anyone to them for that work?

Well, that is private school. No credential needed, pay is usually about half what public school teachers make. My question has always been, why are they willing to work for half pay? Generally because they are pushing an ideology, not necessarily focused on a quality education.

Now, you may say, "harrummph, public school teachers are overpaid anyway" But if you did that, you would be admitting you don't know what the heck you are talking about.
Exactly.

Which is why good public universities like the Cal State system are so much better then crappy private universities like Harvard, Yale and Stanford......
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:58 PM
 
2,549 posts, read 1,520,202 times
Reputation: 891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highnlite View Post
A couple of points here, I have three kids in University, all products of the California public school system. The youngest scored a 5 out of 5 on AP calculus test, and 4's on the other AP tests.

California schools do a great job, the stats are brought down because of the number of at risk students in CA.

So you want a private school education for your child? Let me set up a little analogy for you. You have a line of work, whatever it is, you are trained for that work, perhaps a license program, trades apprenticeship, university education. You do good work.

Now, a person opens a similar shop down the street. They have no training in your field, they have no license or diploma or credential and are willing to work for half of what you make.

Do you think they will be as good as you? Would you send anyone to them for that work?

Well, that is private school. No credential needed, pay is usually about half what public school teachers make. My question has always been, why are they willing to work for half pay? Generally because they are pushing an ideology, not necessarily focused on a quality education.

Now, you may say, "harrummph, public school teachers are overpaid anyway" But if you did that, you would be admitting you don't know what the heck you are talking about.
Excellent points! The general population tends to over simplify most issues. Education is no exception. Here's some more...

Educating so many second language kids is a huge burden. Maybe one of the largest but there is so much more. Bush Jr. left us with No Child Left Behind. From it blossomed a multi-billion dollar testing industry. The latest in that testing arena? College aptitude for eighth graders. Really! It is estimated that the average public educator spends 30 plus percent preparing in general and preparing students for testing. Can you guess what they are not doing in that time? If you said educating, you are correct. Furthermore, the traditional approach of reading, writing and arithmetic have given way to an approach that is supposed to improve testing ability. Except that test scores are not improving. In fact, they are often declining. Couple that with an increase of homework of some 40% and you have overworked, underperforming students. Countries like Korea, and Koreans here in the US, still apply a more hard nosed, traditional approach and their high scores reflect the "positive" results.

My wife is an on site counselor at a middle school in a small, affluent district in Southern CA. She sees suicidal sixth graders each year. Sixth grade and suicidal? WTH? Can you say pressure?

Check out Race To Nowhere, a documentary on the testing industry if it has come out by now. Quite intriguing indeed.

The call for all private schools sounds good initially. Except as highnlite pointed out, those teachers are paid less. What happens when the "market" reacts? Better quality teachers demand better pay as is the norm in a free market. Who pays for that? Ultimately, the parents of the student. How long before unions rear their "ugly" heads again? As it is, some local private schools in this area are already charging $30k per year starting in kindergarden. Yes $30k and that's with teachers who are paid less than the public sector. As it is, few can afford such a cost. When we displace huge numbers of kids because of economic realities, what then?

Obama has passed a national education standard. I am sure it is fraught with over generalizations that will water down education across the board in order to accomodate each and every person. The system is in trouble but is it broken beyond repair?

Lastly, my wife makes approximately $85k for a ten month year. Her average day is 9 to 10 working hours. She has a BS in Communications, several teaching credentials, a dual Masters in Education (including Administration) and 20 plus years of employment in education. Is that overpaid?

Last edited by Mr Floyd; 08-23-2010 at 01:08 PM..
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:59 PM
 
2,549 posts, read 1,520,202 times
Reputation: 891
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC Investor2 View Post
Exactly.

Which is why good public universities like the Cal State system are so much better then crappy private universities like Harvard, Yale and Stanford......
OK. Are you being facetious?
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:07 PM
 
913 posts, read 1,583,948 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post
Check out Race To Nowhere, a documentary on the testing industry if it has come out by now. Quite intriguing indeed.
Thanks for the recommendation. I went to Netflix, but it was only available to "save". It says "DVD availability date unknown". Would you care to give us the CliffsNotes until it is available for rent?
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,362 posts, read 55,939,563 times
Reputation: 16417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highnlite View Post

Now, a person opens a similar shop down the street. They have no training in your field, they have no license or diploma or credential and are willing to work for half of what you make.

Do you think they will be as good as you? Would you send anyone to them for that work?
Exactly. And if they can't satisfy the market they'll go out of business. And if a parent wants his kids to go to school with blue people who worship the beavers, then that's their choice. Government schools are run by politicians - with agendas - who control the text books including the history books.
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,362 posts, read 55,939,563 times
Reputation: 16417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
Private Schools vary... it's not fair to say they are inferior and many private college prep schools do very well and often exceed the performance of local public schools...

Don't kid yourself... not everyone teaching in Public School is credentialed either...

A lot of private schools have a "self selecting demographic" meaning, only those who can afford to pay can attend the school and often those who can afford to pay are higher up in the intelligence gene pool and would consequently have kids who are smarter than average. Are the teachers in a private school better or are they working with a more teachable set of students?
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,362 posts, read 55,939,563 times
Reputation: 16417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post

My wife is an on site counselor at a middle school in a small, affluent district in Southern CA. She sees suicidal sixth graders each year. Sixth grade and suicidal? WTH? Can you say pressure?

I wonder how much of that pressure is due to academics versus the traditional pressures kids face in middle school. Middle school is brutal. Kids in elementary school are too innocent to be jerks. Kids in high school are too cool to be jerks. In middle school the competition, the establishment of dominance, really shows and the differences between the strong and the weak are the greatest.
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:25 PM
 
2,549 posts, read 1,520,202 times
Reputation: 891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
I wonder how much of that pressure is due to academics versus the traditional pressures kids face in middle school. Middle school is brutal. Kids in elementary school are too innocent to be jerks. Kids in high school are too cool to be jerks. In middle school the competition, the establishment of dominance, really shows and the differences between the strong and the weak are the greatest.
Yes. I would not want to over simplify. I would think this is due to all of the above. And yes, I have heard the educators I know discuss the particularly delicate nature of middle school. If you couple the normal, age old pressures with increasing academic / testing ones, it would seem the results could get ugly.
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