News from the Prop 23 front (Nice: power lines, loan, home)

[Oerdin]

Originally Posted by Xplorer

Basically, AB32 is the California version of Cap N Trade.

It allows the taxation of carbon and the creation of a carbon offset market.

I have read both the independent studies as well as CARBs.

Independent study says $7-9 a gallon gas, 50% increase in utility bills, possible average of $4,500 a year in tolls for freeway access, $50,000 added to the cost of building an average home, a 40% increase in food costs and the loss of up to 1,000,000 jobs.

CARB says "Not correct, people will just by new cars, drive less, replace all their old appliances, move out of the suburbs, buy existing homes and install solar panels." They also go on to cite that people in the USA only spend 10% of their income on food compared to 20% or more in Europe, so it is only fair that we pay a higher percentage. And the job losses will be offset by the creation of "green jobs" and the amount of jobs "created" by CARB in the inspection and enforcement areas of "green compliance".

Seriously people, you need to read up on this thing. IMO, it is going to kill this state. Scary, draconian **** for sure.

ETA: Our newly elected governor is one of the biggest proponents of AB32, it is his baby in many ways. He is 2nd only to AlGore himself in leading the "green" charge

If any of that was even remotely true then I'd agree with you but honestly it sounds like alarmist nonsense. "Will cost millions of jobs", "Teh gas will be $9!!!!!111111ONE".

[steelstress]

Originally Posted by Majin

404

Ok, try this

Solyndra scrapping expansion plans - San Jose Mercury News (http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_16521842?nclick_check=1 - broken link)

[steelstress]

And ANOTHER interesting tidbit, regarding Tom Steyer, largest contributor to the defeat of Prop 23.:

A New Yorker who received his MBA from Stanford's Graduate School of Business in 1983, Steyer fell in love with California -- and his wife, Kat Taylor -- and never went back east. He founded the hedge fund Farallon Capital Management in 1986 and has managed it ever since. Farallon invests in both public and private debt, equities, private investments and real estate, and its holdings include Exxon Mobil, Home Depot, Oracle and Yingli Green Energy, a solar manufacturer in China.

Article here:

Prop. 23 defeat sweet for Tom Steyer - San Jose Mercury News

How sweet it is for Tom Steyer.

[esmith143]

Originally Posted by Fontucky

The aerospace company that an old friend of mine is president of just announced their decision to relocate to AZ or NV to all of their IE employees this morning. This decision was based on the outcome of the election.

Because of prop 23? Do they have hard numbers showing how much AB32 will cost them, vs. cost of relocation? Or are they moving just because the president hates Jerry Brown?

[esmith143]

Originally Posted by steelstress

Ok, try this

Solyndra scrapping expansion plans - San Jose Mercury News (http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_16521842?nclick_check=1 - broken link)

It's hard to compete with China and its $1/hr factory workers. No one denies that.

[steelstress]

Originally Posted by esmith143

It's hard to compete with China and its $1/hr factory workers. No one denies that.

Yes, and Tom Steyer, one of the largest backers of No on Prop 23 has a share of a solar panel company IN CHINA. CA just bent over a table and Tom f'd the whole state in his favor. Lovely.

[Oerdin]

Originally Posted by Fontucky

Police department? I did mention productive sector, didn't I?

One day, probably when you're calling 911, you might think the police are pretty darn productive and useful.

[Oerdin]

Originally Posted by esmith143

It's hard to compete with China and its $1/hr factory workers. No one denies that.

Which is overwhelmingly why manufacturing leaves the state; almost none of them according to Stanford Business School's report leave for other states and instead they're going to China where the average industrial wage is literally $0.87 per hour after a decade of big increases in wages. The right wing claim that businesses are fleeing California in droves for other states is just a proven lie and even the best Stanford economists said they couldn't suss out much more then background noise which happens all the time in every state.

The OP is just bunk.

[esmith143]

Basically, AB32 is the California version of Cap N Trade.

It allows the taxation of carbon and the creation of a carbon offset market.

I have read both the independent studies as well as CARBs.

Independent study says $7-9 a gallon gas, 50% increase in utility bills, possible average of $4,500 a year in tolls for freeway access, $50,000 added to the cost of building an average home, a 40% increase in food costs and the loss of up to 1,000,000 jobs.

CARB says "Not correct, people will just by new cars, drive less, replace all their old appliances, move out of the suburbs, buy existing homes and install solar panels."

Cap and trade is, by definition, a zero sum game. Higher costs for greenhouse emitters are offset by lower costs for those who take care to lower their emissions. The net effect is that emitters are incentivized to use more efficient technologies. It does not cost nearly as much to satisfy the goals of AB 32.

Here's an independent study for you.

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documen...ess-report.pdf

At those carbon prices, we project cap and trade under AB 32 will increase prices in 2020 by:
< 0.7 cents per kWh (5%) and by 1.9 cents per kWh (12%) for electricity in the Conservative Case and Extreme Case, respectively;
<15 cents per therm (12%) and by 30 cents per therm (25%) for natural gas in the Conservative and Extreme cases;
<35 cents per gallon (8%) and by 53 cents per gallon (12%) for transportation fuel in the Conservative and Extreme cases.
(...)
Under this approach, AB 32 will increase small business energy-related expenses relative to revenue by, at most, 1.3 percentage points in the Conservative Case and 3.9 points in the Extreme Case. The average estimated increases are even less: at just 0.3 percentage points in the Conservative Case and at 0.9 points in the Extreme Case. So, for example, AB 32 will increase the energy costs of small businesses in the Air Transportation sector (the most energy-intensive sector) by 1.0 percentage point, from 12.3% of revenue to 13.3%, in the Conservative Case. In the Extreme Case, energy-related costs in that sector will increase by 3.9 points (also from 12.3% of revenue) to 16.2%. However, that sector accounts for just 0.1% of small business employment in California.
(...)
we concretely illustrate, using a case study approach, how AB 32 might affect energy-related costs, energy use, and the resulting performance of an actual small business in California under the same Conservative Case and Extreme Case scenarios... Within the restaurant sector, we identified and selected an upscale, Mexican restaurant located in Los Angeles named the Border Grill. ... In the Conservative Case, we assume the Border Grill fully passes-through this cost increase to its customers via price increases. The associated price increases are so small as to be almost unnoticeable to customers. The entire cost impact of AB 32 by 2020 can be completely offset by price increases of just 7 cents to the average ($51) dinner bill.

[esmith143]

Originally Posted by steelstress

Yes, and Tom Steyer, one of the largest backers of No on Prop 23 has a share of a solar panel company IN CHINA. CA just bent over a table and Tom f'd the whole state in his favor. Lovely.

Read on:

"Steyer is one of 40 billionaires who, encouraged by Warren Buffett and Bill Gates, have pledged to give at least half of their wealth to charity."

"In 2008, Steyer and Taylor donated $40 million to help fund a renewable energy research center at Stanford. Known as the TomKat Center for Sustainable Energy, it will focus on the development of affordable renewable energy technology as well as public policy."

Sometimes people do things just because it's the right thing to do, not because it enriches them personally.