Labor's coming class warfare? (Bell, Monterey: section 8, house, camper)

[TimC2462]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

In the end, that will be between them and their constituents. They'll only be able to bring themselves down, not threaten the entire state. At least the pain, incompetence, abuse of power, etc. will be localized.

+1

[mateo45]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Interesting indeed and a lot of truth to it. Public employee labor unions have been self-perpetuating (Thank you, Jerry Brown) and self-aggrandizing for years. State workers actually did much better when their pay and benefits were controlled by the Department of Personnel Administration. Sure, the pay and benefits are higher now, as are the pensions, but at what cost? Putting the state in an untenable fiscal position isn't helping anyone and is hurting everyone. DPA would have kept thing in far better balance.

But isn't that kind of easy to say, for a self-professed former California public employee (recently retired), now that they're safely sucking on the Cali public teat.... from MO?! Of course if one were really that unhappy about receiving their "higher pension", I suppose they could always send us back a refund....

[jimhcom]

There has been an organized attack on unions going on for 40 years. What is happening now is the final elimination of unions.
The public unions were given enough rope to hang themselves by purposely allowing pay and benefits to get out of control so that public sentiment could be swayed to support their elimination.
Most of the construction unions were decimated 20 years ago.
It is really an amazing thing to watch, as the powers that be manipulate the working public to eliminate the institutions that were formed 100 years ago to protect them.
Not only are they destroying the unions themselves, they are poisoning the very idea of collective bargaining as being some kind of evil institution.
With more and more American jobs being outsourced overseas, the elimination of the unions combined with high unemployment rates, will return the country back to time of corporate tyranny we last saw at the turn of the last century.
You have to hand it to them, these guys are good.
They convince people that debt is the road to prosperity, that we must have war in order to have peace, that we must sacrifice liberty for safety, that collective bargaining is ruining prosperity, even that they must pay for the criminal actions of bankers and Wall St.
When he wrote 1984, George Orwell probably thought he was writing a book of science fiction, not laying out the future blueprint for society.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by mateo45

But isn't that kind of easy to say, for a self-professed former California public employee (recently retired), now that they're safely sucking on the Cali public teat.... from MO?! Of course if one were really that unhappy about receiving their "higher pension", I suppose they could always send us back a refund....

Oh, bother!

Of course it is, and without any hypocrisy, if one is a realist. I was a manager so I was not represented and had no vote for any of it. My "higher" pension would surprise you at how low it really is and let me hasten to point out, I contributed to it every month for the 25 years I was with the state. I have absolutely no qualms about getting some return on investment.

You are, of course, free to call it what you will but you're also becoming quite redundant and predictable as some of the other rabid drinkers of the Kool Aid. Might I suggest small sips rather than big gulps?

[Gurbie]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

Interesting short article from the WSJ about the differences between public and private union agendas, and their costs to the economy ... very apropos to the constant commentary I read here on the California Forum regarding Jerry Brown's obligations and ties ... and the financial burdens to the state and its cities, especially with regard to public employee pensions:

McGurn: Labor's Coming Class War - WSJ.com

Gee, another anti-Labor article from the Management mouth organ, the WSJ. "Unions-Threat or Menace??? "

Now the author wishes to imagine, or wish into existance, some kind of conflict between Public and Private unions. That would suit his bosses in the editorial offices very nicely- the ol' divide and conquer act.

My personal experience was somewhat different. During my 30 year career as a humble public servent, I was VERY active with our Association. We ROUTINELY joined in solidarity with private sector union groups whenever they asked for our support. There was ZERO resentment- just mutual appreciation and respect.

Look, when times are good, everybody makes out. When they are bad, then, ya, it's time for the bargaining units to exercise common sense (which we always did).

But NEVER FORGET, that in good times and bad, Management would love nothing better than to get rid of those pesky unions once and for all.

[nullgeo]

Postscript re: me being the OP who linked the article:
I brought this forth to stimulate discussion, as I have read comments daily for months on this Forum that link Jerry Brown and others to union obligations. I did not state a personal agenda, for or against, at the time. Some of the responses here are pretty good and right on topic Personally, I think it is great to air various opinions on the role of unions and their perceived benefits and dangers -- see what shakes out.

My father was a social scientist who worked with race-relations and integration and public / fair housing, etc. I was raised amidst many top national politicians, civil rights activists and unionists in the 50's and early 60's. My parents were strongly liberal, pro-union, including being close friends with the Reuther brothers, Walter (the socialist / UAW unionist) and Victor, from the wars years until Walter's (suspicious) death -- and with Victor for life. I knew and dined in my home with many of the very most famous civil rights leaders of those times (yes, including Dr. King). This revelation here will get a huge "AHA!" from the right leaners and wingers on this Forum, several of whom lately like to take swipes at me ... but you are mistaken if you jump to the conclusion that I am also a lefty. My extreme independence of thought as a youth alienated me somewhat from my own family. I outright angered them at times due to my insistence on thinking outside of the movements of the day -- and I am worse today than back when

I wouldn't give you a nickel collectively for all the politicians I met when I was growing up. What I did, and still do, admire were the strong characters of the civil-rights and union leaders. They were, in those times, powerful and committed in spirit, will, and action. They confronted the problems of their age with boundless courage. Several paid with their lives. If unions have now evolved out of their original britches and morphed into dysfunctional parasitic creatures, what is necessary, as always, is to find leadership with the courage of the past to reestablish their value. Without entirely condemning big business -- manufacturing and financial all -- anything powerful requires checks and balances to keep the function served healthy. This is justifiably one of the chief roles of collective bargaining.

[sjnative]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Now, you may want to see the entire pay package come to the employee and have the employee make decisions as to the dispersal, and that is reasonable.

I didn't see anything in your post about CA unionized public employees:

1. retiring early, in many cases at 55 yo
2. retiring with a huge percentage of their pensions

That's what's such a death knell to CA.

Originally Posted by jimhcom

There has been an organized attack on unions going on for 40 years. What is happening now is the final elimination of unions.
The public unions were given enough rope to hang themselves by purposely allowing pay and benefits to get out of control so that public sentiment could be swayed to support their elimination.
....

That really is a good conspiracy theory but some of us believe that the unions became so powerful not because anyone but themselves wanted them to.



Let's face it, the public employee unions have no one but themselves to blame. They've long painted themselves as deserving but what they are are presumptuous of an entitlement to ever more and better compensation, esp since they live in an expensive and rich state like CA.

This madness of their overreaching their employers and the tax payers- the rest of us- needs to begin to come to and end.

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by sjnative

... public employee unions have ... long painted themselves as deserving but what they are are presumptuous of an entitlement to ever more and better compensation, esp since they live in an expensive and rich state like CA.

This madness of their overreaching their employers and the tax payers- the rest of us- needs to begin to come to and end.

Much the same can be said of the American public in general, no?

Life is opportunistic, by nature.
There comes inevitably, in any society that has reached a high degree of development and wealth, a sense of entitlement across the board that weakens the foundations of even the greatest nations. At which point, courage must spring anew, or the society will fail -- regardless of any political system. And the courage must be in the hearts of all citizens, not just in their leadership.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by sjnative

Let's face it, the public employee unions have no one but themselves to blame. They've long painted themselves as deserving but what they are are presumptuous of an entitlement to ever more and better compensation, esp since they live in an expensive and rich state like CA.

This madness of their overreaching their employers and the tax payers- the rest of us- needs to begin to come to and end.

For once, I can't disagree with you. But it's only part of the story. Remember, none of this could have happened without the willing cooperation of the unions puppets, aka: the Legislature and past governors. They have to approve all the contracts.

[mateo45]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Oh, bother!

Of course it is, and without any hypocrisy, if one is a realist. I was a manager so I was not represented and had no vote for any of it. My "higher" pension would surprise you at how low it really is and let me hasten to point out, I contributed to it every month for the 25 years I was with the state. I have absolutely no qualms about getting some return on investment.

You are, of course, free to call it what you will but you're also becoming quite redundant and predictable as some of the other rabid drinkers of the Kool Aid. Might I suggest small sips rather than big gulps?

So then, would you say that you're, um, "representative" of the public employees which the taxpayers of Cali have been supporting all these years (including their generous retirement)? If so, that's probably the most "persuasive" argument for "change"...