Public Employees - The new welfare queens (credit, home)

[randian]

Originally Posted by CA4Now

I suggest YOU look at them. My sister, two neighbors, a brother-in-law and three of our friends are teachers. Two of our kids' teachers have just retired. NONE of them are overpaid. Where do you get your information?

"Not overpaid" is not an antonym of "meager". According to this article by the Sacramento Bee, the average teacher salary in California is $67k/year. That's not meager. Add in their health, pension, and vacation benefits and the relative lack of difficulty in getting an education degree and yes, I'd say they're overpaid.

[randian]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Consider this, 4 year computer engineering degree from Cal Poly, 23 years old, starting pay, $70,000 a year.

5 year teaching credential, 20 years in the class room, 44 years old, pay, around $50,000 a year.

Consider nothing. Your comparison is fraudulent. That teacher's actual total compensation is significantly higher than the engineer's, after health and pension benefits are figured in. Tons of vacation time (for the teacher) are a bonus.

Furthermore, that engineering degree is a lot harder to get and a lot fewer people are smart enough to get one, compared to an education degree. Supply and demand still matter, even in a market as skewed by government edict as the education market.

[.highnlite]

Consider nothing. Your comparison is fraudulent. That teacher's actual total compensation is significantly higher than the engineer's, after health and pension benefits are figured in. Tons of vacation time (for the teacher) are a bonus.

Nuts,

You don't think an engineer gets health and pension through his employer?

That "Vacation Time" you speak of is uncompensated, and for most teachers a fair amount of that is taken up by recert classes

Teachers are generally paid for 182 or, 185 work days per year,

Most workers are paid for 220 work days per year. A difference of 35 days, does that fit your definition of "tons"

Now, take that difference and subtract recert class time.

Furthermore, that engineering degree is a lot harder to get and a lot fewer people are smart enough to get one, compared to an education degree. Supply and demand still matter, even in a market as skewed by government edict as the education market.

Nuts again, put an engineer into a classroom for a week and watch what happens. An engineering degree does not take more intelligence than an education degree. Most teachers run in the average to high IQ range, 100 to 125, and guess what! So do engineers.

As for your second part, Watch the next couple of years, in California the population of students is increasing, the number of college freshmen entering as education majors is down 45%.

Based on your thesis teacher salaries should increase substantially.

You, and anyone who thinks like you, should volunteer in classrooms.

[randian]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

You don't think an engineer gets health and pension through his employer?

To the extent provided in the public sector, hell no. Health care benefits usually end post-retirement in the private sector, for example, and pensions, if there are any, are not nearly as rich. I use that word deliberately.

Originally Posted by .highnlite

That "Vacation Time" you speak of is uncompensated, and for most teachers a fair amount of that is taken up by recent classes

Irrelevant, since vacation time doesn't reduce received salaries. That $67k average salary I quoted includes vacation time. That's also much higher than the average wage in California. Teacher compensation is not "meager" or "underpaid" by any sane definition, no matter how much you complain otherwise.

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Most workers are paid for 220 work days per year. A difference of 35 days, does that fit your definition of "tons"

You seem clueless about the private sector. When the average private sector worker gets 2 weeks vacation a year, an extra seven weeks (35 working days) of vacation a year on top of that is very much "tons" more.

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Based on your thesis teacher salaries should increase substantially.

Even with a 45% reduction, there are still too many candidates per available slot, and teacher salaries are not subject to any market discipline. This will have no effect on salaries.

Originally Posted by .highnlite

An engineering degree does not take more intelligence than an education degree.

Now I know you're smoking dope. You cannot seriously argue that education degrees are as hard to get as engineering degrees. The old trope about "those who can't teach" isn't mere bigotry. There are no 100 IQ engineers. None. I'm not talking about the "title inflated" engineers you see in the public sector, either. I'm talking about people who design stuff. An average person simply isn't smart enough. I do not say this to insult them; it is no more insulting than it would be to say the average person cannot, no matter how hard they try, run a 4-minute mile.

[yeahthatguy]

Originally Posted by randian

To the extent provided in the public sector, hell no. Health care benefits usually end post-retirement in the private sector, for example, and pensions, if there are any, are not nearly as rich. I use that word deliberately.

Irrelevant, since vacation time doesn't reduce received salaries. That $67k average salary I quoted includes vacation time. That's also much higher than the average wage in California. Teacher compensation is not "meager" or "underpaid" by any sane definition, no matter how much you complain otherwise.

You seem clueless about the private sector. When the average private sector worker gets 2 weeks vacation a year, an extra seven weeks (35 working days) of vacation a year on top of that is very much "tons" more.

Even with a 45% reduction, there are still too many candidates per available slot, and teacher salaries are not subject to any market discipline. This will have no effect on salaries.

Now I know you're smoking dope. You cannot seriously argue that education degrees are as hard to get as engineering degrees. The old trope about "those who can't teach" isn't mere bigotry. There are no 100 IQ engineers. None. I'm not talking about the "title inflated" engineers you see in the public sector, either. I'm talking about people who design stuff. An average person simply isn't smart enough. I do not say this to insult them; it is no more insulting than it would be to say the average person cannot, no matter how hard they try, run a 4-minute mile.

+1 rep point for Randian .. hear hear : Another person speaking harsh truths people would like not to hear

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by randian

... There are no 100 IQ engineers. None. I'm not talking about the "title inflated" engineers you see in the public sector, either. I'm talking about people who design stuff. An average person simply isn't smart enough. I do not say this to insult them; it is no more insulting than it would be to say the average person cannot, no matter how hard they try, run a 4-minute mile.

I simply can't resist ... no matter how hard I try, my fingers are dragging me to the keyboard on this one ... you mean all these "brilliant" engineers who design all these wonderful products we all live with -- and which products we all are baffled as to why anyone in their right mind would design the way they are? Things that are supposed to be repairable , for example, but which have essentially impossible access to the components?

Uh oh ... I feel an uncontrollable urge to rant on and on and on and on and on -- ad nauseum -- about engineers, and how much smarter they are than the rest of the population .......................... *urp*

[.highnlite]

uote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite
You don't think an engineer gets health and pension through his employer?
To the extent provided in the public sector, hell no. Health care benefits usually end post-retirement in the private sector, for example, and pensions, if there are any, are not nearly as rich. I use that word deliberately.

This is pretty sad, what exactly do you do? You think teacher health insurance continues after they stop paying into it upon retirement? You really think private sector retirement plans are not better than teachers? Really? you think that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite
That "Vacation Time" you speak of is uncompensated, and for most teachers a fair amount of that is taken up by recent classes
Irrelevant, since vacation time doesn't reduce received salaries. That $67k average salary I quoted includes vacation time. That's also much higher than the average wage in California. Teacher compensation is not "meager" or "underpaid" by any sane definition, no matter how much you complain otherwise.


Irrelevant, since vacation time doesn't reduce received salaries.

Teachers are paid for 182 days, they do not get paid vacation time during the summer. Teachers either get paid 9 months of the year, or their 9 month pay is divided by 12 so that they get something through the summer.


Teacher compensation is not "meager" or "underpaid" by any sane definition, no matter how much you complain otherwise.

A. You think I am complaining when in fact I am giving you data, so what is it exactly that you do that you think involves critical thinking skills.

B. A professional with 5 years college under their belts should be able to buy a new car and a house, teachers don't make enough to do that.

C. Teacher salaries are predicated a false assumption, that teachers are women who have husbands with real jobs.


Apparently you missed my comparison of a starting salary for an engineer compared to a salary for a teacher after 20 years work...... think about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite
Most workers are paid for 220 work days per year. A difference of 35 days, does that fit your definition of "tons"
You seem clueless about the private sector. When the average private sector worker gets 2 weeks vacation a year, an extra seven weeks (35 working days) of vacation a year on top of that is very much "tons" more.

it is more, but, to call that "tons" is stretching it. If you only get 14 days vacation a year, you screwed up in your career choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite
Based on your thesis teacher salaries should increase substantially.
Even with a 45% reduction, there are still too many candidates per available slot, and teacher salaries are not subject to any market discipline. This will have no effect on salaries.

Really, so as teachers retire or leave the profession and the number of education graduates is cut in half, and the student population continues to grow there will still be enough teachers? Now that is funny, I don't care who you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite
An engineering degree does not take more intelligence than an education degree.
Now I know you're smoking dope. You cannot seriously argue that education degrees are as hard to get as engineering degrees.

If you want to argue with me, argue what I said, not what I did not,

The old trope about "those who can't teach" isn't mere bigotry.

Sure it is, it is pure bull**** put out by idiots, try it some time.


There are no 100 IQ engineers. None. I'm not talking about the "title inflated" engineers you see in the public sector, either. I'm talking about people who design stuff. An average person simply isn't smart enough. I do not say this to insult them; it is no more insulting than it would be to say the average person cannot, no matter how hard they try, run a 4-minute mile.


Engineering is a career of rote formulaics, school systems that emphasis rote learning turn out great engineers, look at Japan and China. In America there are few engineers with IQs over 130, because of the behavior characteristics of the extremely highly intelligent, in simple words, for a person of extremely high intelligence, engineering becomes boring fairly quickly. People with IQ's of average 100 to 125 can handle rote repetitious work and enjoy it. Doctors, Engineers, Teachers, etc fit that profile, you can stamp your feet, but that doesn't change the facts.

Engineering requires good math skills, at least to get through school, but does not require higher intelligence than average.

It also seems to be de rigueur to be low in social IQ, I meant it when I said, put an engineer in a classroom with students for a week and see what happens. You seem to be pretty young, at least your thinking has the certainty of the young and inexperienced

[yeahthatguy]

I am just curious .highnlite ... You speak of teachers as if they are god's gift to the earth ...
While I was in K-12, I ran across my fair share of horrible teachers. Suffice to say, I still managed to learn... Because I wanted to and wasn't there to screw around. You speak of teachers as if they don't follow a county mandated lesson plan ... As if they don't teach from county approved books. Teaching isn't as hard as you make it up to be. Having worked in IT at a highschool and having learned a great deal about the functions of a school, I saw it first hand. As a student, the main differentiator was the student body.... In a classroom where kids actually want to learn, the potential is limitless.... In a classroom w/ a bunch of jack wagons, even the world's best teacher couldn't teach them.
That's the hard truth that many knuckle head parents don't want to hear.. But it's the truth. Instead we **** away money trying to make it seam like all the kids are equal. If they are equal, why do they have ESOL, regular, honors, and then AP courses.... They aren't !


I'm an engineer and I'd do great in a classroom. I did great as a guest speaker (which turned into a very engaging lecture of what i did during my 4 years in college)... The key is being able to speak to students in the language they learn in... Be able to describe the most complicated process in the simplest of terms... And so I'm sorry... You can't learn this via formal instruction. The teachers I found to be the best were those who just had a talent for it. The mediocre ones... Well, they just assigned them to the 'regular' classes in which they babysit jack wagons all day. The best were reserved for honors/AP courses and many of them were retired from the private sector... They came back not to make 100 thousand dollar salaries and benefits for life.. but to give back much for which they had received.

If you get a chance, research the social psychology behind this phenomenon. You'll quickly find that, for certain types of work, monetary rewards aren't the reason why people enjoy it/do it.

[.highnlite]

Try elementary, or middle school.

but just for kicks, what phrase did I use that would lead you to this sentence;

You speak of teachers as if they are god's gift to the earth

If you divide America into AP and "Jackwagons" what kind of country are you going to have?

[CA4Now]

Originally Posted by yeahthatguy

Teaching isn't as hard as you make it up to be. I'm an engineer and I'd do great in a classroom. I did great as a guest speaker.

LOL. Try really teaching--for, say, a week; not just speaking for an hour--to ANY grade level in ANY public school, especially high school. My MBA-educated brother did it for his corporation for about that long and was shocked at how incompetent he felt. Or post your experience on the "Education" forum and see what the teachers there think of your philosophy that anyone can do it.