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Old 02-22-2011, 11:03 AM
 
575 posts, read 831,082 times
Reputation: 486

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Personally, I agree there should be some sort of giveback or reduction, but to completely remove unions ability to negotiate in the future is just an attack on unions.

But of course, we can't have a compromise that meets somewhere in the middle in the country today. Each side has an all or nothing attitude. The unions want top dollar all the time, and the republicans want state workers to work for practically nothing.

Keep in mind that if you want to attract talent, you need to pay them livable wages. I don't know if they are overpaid or underpaid, but underpaying them in the future will only make more and more state workers leave Wisconsin for greener pastures. Do you really want state workers who are not able to do the job they were hired for?

 
Old 02-22-2011, 11:34 AM
 
7,150 posts, read 8,799,885 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
... You want me to take what you say on faith, and I have no interest in that. Your story provides no evidence whatsoever for the general claim you are trying to make. If you want to convince people of things you need to provide evidence not stories about your daddy.
...
Boy, more later perhaps ... but just quickly for now: you are a piece of work ... as previously noted, you love to define both what this forum is about and also what form responses should take in order to be meaningful [to others]. .highnlite's story provides excellent anecdotal evidence for his argument ... you assume the duty of a moderator or debate coach, once again, defining what form of evidence is valid for other readers. Sometimes anecdotal evidence is superfluous -- and sometimes it is entirely appropriate to make a point -- unless one is engaging in a team-sanctioned debate -- which this Forum is not. No one here "need[s] to provide evidence" only of a kind acceptable to you by your definitions in order to support their statements. Contributors can tell stories till the cows come home and leave it to the readers to appreciate, or not, the relevance. Once again, take your self-anointed master-debating demands to your closet and perform wonders for yourself. Your assumptions that only your own self-defined terms and axioms are suitable foundations for expression and discussion is ridiculous.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,443,656 times
Reputation: 4321
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
B you love to define both what this forum is about and also what form responses should take in order to be meaningful [to others].
I'm not defining what this forum is about nor am I telling people what they should write, rather I'm telling someone who is trying to demonstrate something to me that he isn't using cogent logic. He can tell stories until he is blue in the face and I don't care, just don't cite them and pretend as if they actually demonstrate what you believe about the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
.highnlite's story provides excellent anecdotal evidence for his argument
Yep and anecdotal evidence isn't actual evidence, its unreliable and fallacious.

Anecdotal evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyhow, I'm not defining what counts as evidence, that was done centuries ago. I'm just demanding that people provide arguments that utilize cogent logic. Trying to establish a general conclusion with "anecdotal evidence" is irrational. Again, not something I come up with, you can blame all those philosophers and scientists.

Its odd the sort of anti-intellectualism that always pops up in political discussions from partisans on both sides. I really have no interest in this sort of anti-intellectualism so by all means move along. I'm not going to justify my use of reason and my desire for evidence-based discussions again. You guys can jump up and down, read tea leafs or whatever else you do to determine what is and is not the case. I don't care.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 02:59 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,435 posts, read 22,351,050 times
Reputation: 8623
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebri View Post
Personally, I agree there should be some sort of giveback or reduction, but to completely remove unions ability to negotiate in the future is just an attack on unions.

But of course, we can't have a compromise that meets somewhere in the middle in the country today. Each side has an all or nothing attitude. The unions want top dollar all the time, and the republicans want state workers to work for practically nothing.

Keep in mind that if you want to attract talent, you need to pay them livable wages. I don't know if they are overpaid or underpaid, but underpaying them in the future will only make more and more state workers leave Wisconsin for greener pastures. Do you really want state workers who are not able to do the job they were hired for?
This I agree with. If wages are low enough, the qualifications to get hired will also be lower. Low enough and even a guy who's only qualified for fast food could get a job making important decisions for a state hypothetically.

*disclaimer*
For those of you who may not have understood, I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT A REAL SITUATION LOL
 
Old 02-22-2011, 03:00 PM
 
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 7,656,358 times
Reputation: 2622
user, The information I gave, was sufficient to convince a reasonable person, that to assume the "wealthy elite" cares about the common man, would be an incorrect assumption, that it did not convince you, proves my point.

I want to go back to something you said in another thread some weeks ago, I did not address it then, but, I shall now. You stated that there were old indian trails crossing the Santa Monica mountains.

Well, anyone familiar with Mediterranean ecology (which is So Cals) knows that trails seldom last more than a few years without brushing. Now, the tread could be there, but indian trails had little tread, they were not much more than threads through thinner brush areas. But, like all SoCal Mountain trails, after a few years without use, they are impassable.

Now, if you want to say there are ancient indian trails crossing the mountains, as you did, show me, otherwise you once again demonstrated that "facts" are just what you want them to be, not objective proofs at all.

At this point, based on your fairly irrational conclusions in this thread, plus your indian trail nonsense, don't expect me to give much credence to what you write on this board.

How close is Thousand Oaks to Camarillo?

Quote:
Trying to establish a general conclusion with "anecdotal evidence" is irrational. Again, not something I come up with, you can blame all those philosophers and scientists.
Not at all, this is not a court of law, and if I or anyone else can provide example upon example of a certain thing, a general conclusion can certainly be drawn, particularly without controverting anecdotes, or evidence.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 05:29 PM
 
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 7,656,358 times
Reputation: 2622
...
Quote:
WASHINGTON -- While Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R) has painted a dire picture of his state's pension obligations, Wisconsin's pension fund for public employees is among the nation's strongest, according to a report by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center.

The Pew report, issued last year, concluded that Wisconsin is a "national leader in managing its long-term liabilities for both pension and retiree health care." Walker has cited the fund's lack of sustainability as grounds for his plan to revoke collective bargaining rights for state employees, but that proposal has sparked outrage among state employees and drawn tens of thousands of protesters to the state's capitol.

"We're going to ask our state and local workers ... to pay a little bit more, to sacrifice, to help to balance this budget," Walker said in a Sunday interview with Fox News' Chris Wallace, adding that he would be forced to lay off 5,000 to 6,000 state employees if his budget plan was not approved, as well as a comparable number of local public employees.

But the Wisconsin pension fund is simply not in fiscal trouble. Its managers weren't burned by subprime mortgage assets or mortgage-backed securities as the housing bubble collapsed. The fund also relies on an automated dividend system, which pays out benefits in years the system is making gains while restricting payouts in years when it takes losses. And while the pension fund had a rough year during 2008 due to stock market losses, it remains robust, both in terms of fundamental financial stability and in comparison to other state pension programs.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,443,656 times
Reputation: 4321
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
user, The information I gave, was sufficient to convince a reasonable person, that to assume the "wealthy elite" cares about the common man, would be an incorrect assumption, that it did not convince you, proves my point.
The information you gave would only convince someone that already believed your hyperbole. My claim is not that every person of wealth cares about the common man, but rather that the characterize of the wealthy as entirely uncaring, in general, of the common man is not accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
I want to go back to something you said in another thread some weeks ago, I did not address it then, but, I shall now. You stated that there were old indian trails crossing the Santa Monica mountains.
Why? It has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. You're not even accurately representing what I said. Stick to the topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
Not at all, this is not a court of law, and if I or anyone else can provide example upon example of a certain thing, a general conclusion can certainly be drawn..
A few examples from a single industry do not provide support for a general conclusion, if you don't understand that then there isn't much I can do. I'm not going bother myself with this sort of anti-intellectualism, go ahead, tell your stories I won't comment on them any further.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 05:49 PM
 
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 7,656,358 times
Reputation: 2622
....
Quote:
WASHINGTON -- While Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R) has painted a dire picture of his state's pension obligations, Wisconsin's pension fund for public employees is among the nation's strongest, according to a report by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center.

The Pew report, issued last year, concluded that Wisconsin is a "national leader in managing its long-term liabilities for both pension and retiree health care." Walker has cited the fund's lack of sustainability as grounds for his plan to revoke collective bargaining rights for state employees, but that proposal has sparked outrage among state employees and drawn tens of thousands of protesters to the state's capitol.

"We're going to ask our state and local workers ... to pay a little bit more, to sacrifice, to help to balance this budget," Walker said in a Sunday interview with Fox News' Chris Wallace, adding that he would be forced to lay off 5,000 to 6,000 state employees if his budget plan was not approved, as well as a comparable number of local public employees.

But the Wisconsin pension fund is simply not in fiscal trouble.
 
Old 02-22-2011, 06:15 PM
 
154 posts, read 314,087 times
Reputation: 109
This guy is certainly a piece of work...I wonder if he shows tonight.... Mark Williams is his name...scary
Here is what I am doing in Sacramento, where they are holding a 5:30 PM event this coming Tuesday: (1) I signed up as an organizer (2) with any luck they will contact me and I will have an "in" (3) in or not I will be there and am asking as many other people as can get there to come with, all of us in SEIU shirts (those who don't have them we can possibly buy some from vendors likely to be there) (4) we are going to target the many TV cameras and reporters looking for comments from the members there (5) we will approach the cameras to make good pictures... signs under our shirts that say things like "screw the taxpayer!" and "you OWE me!" to be pulled out for the camera (timing is important because the signs will be taken away from us) (6) we will echo those slogans in angry sounding tones to the cameras and the reporters. (7) if I do get the 'in' I am going to do my darnedest to get podium access and take the mic to do that rant from there...with any luck and if I can manage the moments to build up to it, I can probably get a cheer out of the crowd for something extreme.
Our goal is to make the gathering look as greedy and goonish as we know that it is, ding their credibility with the media and exploit the lazy reporters who just want dramatic shots and outrageous quotes for headlines. Even if it becomes known that we are plants the quotes and pictures will linger as defacto truth.
[LEFT]
Read more: The State Worker: Conservative group distances itself from rally infiltration plan
[/LEFT]
 
Old 02-22-2011, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Prague
1,993 posts, read 2,967,981 times
Reputation: 2633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oerdin View Post
My big problem with the clown in WI is he never campaigned on busting unions, never said a word about striping public workers of their legal right to organize, yet one of his first acts is to enact the radical right wing agenda of the Koch brothers to essentially outlaw public sector unions. I smell a rat trying to use the classic shock doctrine especially since the governor is claiming there just isn't time for a full public debate, he doesn't need to hear from the people, claims we have to act "Now, now, now!". When some partisan clown is trying to prevent the people from being heard on something as fundamental as removing basic worker rights, such as the right to organize and unionize, then you just know there is a rat. There is a reason he doesn't want the people to say what their views are just like there is a reason he's trying to prevent workers' voices from being heard. There is a dead rat stinking up the place and it is in the governor's mansion.
Actually, he did. I was watching CNN on my flight home yesterday and they were debating just that. They played some of his campaign commercials where he said rather bluntly he was going after public employee unions.

And let's not forget, this is about public employee unions, not all unions. Let's not also forget that they can still bargain over wages, just not benefits and working conditions. I think he's going a little too far myself, but this bill has no effect whatsoever on non-public employee unions and does not end all ability to bargain. They can still bargain over wages.

Last edited by CarawayDJ; 02-22-2011 at 07:45 PM..
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