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Old 02-26-2011, 09:37 AM
 
5,113 posts, read 4,938,040 times
Reputation: 1728

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
What???

If Ca. goes into "deep depression" as you say, you honestly think it will be a California only problem? Think about California's economy for a moment and ask yourself if you can really escape it by moving to BFE.
I never said it would only be California but each state will have different conditions with a different severity. As conditions get worse California’s economy will get worse, it's degrading every day. California is losing big business tax revenue (my company just moved headquarters to another state and major layoffs this spring), increased unemployment means less tax revenue and more payout for unemployment insurance and welfare, increased foreclosures means loss in tax revenue, credit rating downgrade means higher interest on debt, increased illegal’s means fewer jobs for citizens and increased social costs (schools, welfare, medical, etc.), increased operating costs due to inflation and increase in fuel/electricity means less business profit and less tax revenue .... it goes on and on in a vicious cycle.

Bottom line is business is not growing in California, businesses are moving, closing or downsizing and jobs are being lost. The state, local and federal governments are doing nothing to improve it ... they are doing the opposite!

 
Old 02-26-2011, 10:25 AM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,422 posts, read 22,270,715 times
Reputation: 8613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don9 View Post
I never said it would only be California but each state will have different conditions with a different severity. As conditions get worse California’s economy will get worse, it's degrading every day. California is losing big business tax revenue (my company just moved headquarters to another state and major layoffs this spring), increased unemployment means less tax revenue and more payout for unemployment insurance and welfare, increased foreclosures means loss in tax revenue, credit rating downgrade means higher interest on debt, increased illegal’s means fewer jobs for citizens and increased social costs (schools, welfare, medical, etc.), increased operating costs due to inflation and increase in fuel/electricity means less business profit and less tax revenue .... it goes on and on in a vicious cycle.

Bottom line is business is not growing in California, businesses are moving, closing or downsizing and jobs are being lost. The state, local and federal governments are doing nothing to improve it ... they are doing the opposite!
I agree with some of what you said but some of it is well let me explain:

First the illegal thing; they ARE NOT taking jobs from citizens. Most citizens are not out picking crops and don't even consider those types of jobs. Employment agencies as far as I know don't offer such jobs as an option. Any decent job requires you to show proof of citizenship. Only the low paying very low skilled jobs do not in most cases. This is not to say that something needs to be done about illegal immigration, it isn't good for any country to let such a thing go unchecked for a whole host of other reasons some of which include the added costs of maintaining schools and social programs you mentioned. Ca. citizens alone have not driven the cost of those things up by themselves by that much over such a short period of time.

As far as jobs leaving the state, I think it's more complicated than that. Some companies have relocated here as other threads have mentioned. Some of the jobs that are leaving in many cases the companies are victims of the economy. California has a lot of jobs in the hospitality and tourism industry and that sector has been especially hit hard. That's where a lot of jobs went as well. They didn't move to other states, they just vanished.
 
Old 02-26-2011, 10:51 AM
 
5,113 posts, read 4,938,040 times
Reputation: 1728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
I agree with some of what you said but some of it is well let me explain:

First the illegal thing; they ARE NOT taking jobs from citizens. Most citizens are not out picking crops and don't even consider those types of jobs. Employment agencies as far as I know don't offer such jobs as an option. Any decent job requires you to show proof of citizenship. Only the low paying very low skilled jobs do not in most cases. This is not to say that something needs to be done about illegal immigration, it isn't good for any country to let such a thing go unchecked for a whole host of other reasons some of which include the added costs of maintaining schools and social programs you mentioned. Ca. citizens alone have not driven the cost of those things up by themselves by that much over such a short period of time.

As far as jobs leaving the state, I think it's more complicated than that. Some companies have relocated here as other threads have mentioned. Some of the jobs that are leaving in many cases the companies are victims of the economy. California has a lot of jobs in the hospitality and tourism industry and that sector has been especially hit hard. That's where a lot of jobs went as well. They didn't move to other states, they just vanished.
For the illegal issue: My wife works at one of the largest aerospace company in California and she works in visitor control which means she authorizes non employees to work on-site. She said she constantly gets illegal aliens that work for contractors who do work at our facilities. These are electricians, construction and other good paying skilled jobs that companies are hiring illegal’s for. For my wife this a problem because illegal’s can't be on the property. This kind of ileagal employment is happening all over California.

There was a good article floating around that talked about all the companies leaving California. This article first came out over a year ago and then they revised it last fall because so many more companies left and were added to the list. I have not seen a list of companies coming to California. I just read this morning that many of the green technology companies that received Obama stimulus money are closing shop, downsizing and laying off workers. One of the companies is Solyndra which was Obama's poster child for creating green jobs and he had several photo op's with them.

More trouble for Solyndra as factory closes, layoffs start


Subsidized 'green' energy only distorts markets

Last edited by Vascodagama; 02-26-2011 at 11:10 AM..
 
Old 02-26-2011, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,408,991 times
Reputation: 4314
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Y to everyone reading that you have no interest in issues or discussions
I have brought up numerous issues in response to your posts, you've not addressed a single issue. You instead focus your attention on partisan flip-flop, you seem unable to discuss matters without the typical partisan hyperbole.

To start a serious discussion on matters, you have to first stop conflating private and public unions. This distinct is being purposely blurred in public debate.

Last edited by user_id; 02-26-2011 at 12:09 PM..
 
Old 02-26-2011, 12:04 PM
 
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río Porciúncula
14,518 posts, read 15,203,158 times
Reputation: 10360
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
To start a serious discuss on matters, you have to first stop conflating private and public unions. This distinct is being purposely blurred in public debate.
You keep saying that and it's absolutely true! Comparing public sector and private sector unions is like comparing apples to oranges. Those who cannot understand the difference are turning this into a fruitless discussion.
 
Old 02-26-2011, 12:15 PM
 
25,959 posts, read 28,359,899 times
Reputation: 24609
[quote=Gurbie;17939294]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
I rarely agree with O'Reilly, but he poses some good questions here:
Insurrection in Wisconsin - FoxNews.com

Here's another perspective from USA Today.
Wisconsin is 'ground zero' for battle over unions - USATODAY.com

So many problems, so few solutions that arent painful.[/quote

This coordinated attack on public sector unions by GOP Governors has little to do with state budgets. That's just the excuse they are using. It has to do with defunding Dem election candidates.

Public sector unions are one of the major sources of funding for the Dems. Unions (workers) generally support Dems, who in turn look after their interests. Corporatations (managers) generally support the GOP, who then looks after their interests.

The conservatives on the SCOTUS acted last year, by cynically conflating the scope of the Citizen's United case, to insure corporatations have unbridled ability to contribute money to campaigns, insuring a steady supply of money to (primarily) GOP coffers. Now, the second shoe is dropping. The GOP governors are acting in coordination to attempt to destroy public sector unions to cut off a steady supply of money to Dem coffers.

Walker and his ilk are exploiting the financial crises in their states to hamstring the State worker's unions. They are using the anger and resentment of the private sector workers (whose unions were destroyed long ago) to fuel the case. Walker does not want to re-negotiate contracts- he wants to outlaw collective bargaining, which is why unions exist in the first place.

If Walker is serious about finances, then why does his proposal to outlaw public sector collective bargaining exclude Police, Fire, and Corrections unions in Wisconsin? Hint: they contributed to his campaign.

But, don't worry- if Walker gets his way this time, they'll be next. Divide and conquer... the oldest management trick in the book.
I think this is pretty accurate. However, why is no one outraged that this special interest stuff (whether it be businesses or unions) goes on as a normal thing??? It seems like people are ok with it if it's "their team" but not ok with it if it's not. Regardless of whose special interest it is, we're all being hurt by it.
 
Old 02-26-2011, 01:01 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,374,464 times
Reputation: 29064
I hate to say it but all the back-and-forth is mostly moot. California is not Wisconsin and Jerry Brown is not Scott Walker. Oh, Jerry will try to get voluntary concessions from the public employees such as increasing their "contributions" to their medical, dental and pension plans but any pressure from Jerry is really lacking teeth. He knows it and the special interests he allowed through the gate in the first place - the labor unions - know it as well. He won't bnite the hand that's fed his political life for the past 30+ years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post

I think this is pretty accurate. However, why is no one outraged that this special interest stuff (whether it be businesses or unions) goes on as a normal thing??? It seems like people are ok with it if it's "their team" but not ok with it if it's not. Regardless of whose special interest it is, we're all being hurt by it.
Everyone is outraged by the antics of the "other guys" but OK with their own. It's the precise parallel to elections behavior and mindset. All the politicians are weak, greedy bums but my bum is better than your bum so I'm going to vote for him again.

Remember, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~ George Santayana. Clearly the electorate in Califorenia is a prime example of the truth of it. As Californians will, they really took it to the extreme and voted in a retread.
 
Old 02-26-2011, 01:10 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 8,772,061 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovehound View Post
... Comparing public sector and private sector unions is like comparing apples to oranges. Those who cannot understand the difference are turning this into a fruitless discussion.
Hmmm ... well, before you declare apples and oranges as having nothing in common, consider that they are both fruit ... and are often found together in fruit salad. And before you declare that public and private unions have no common functions to the benefit of society, you might consider reading varying opinions on that very subject -- of which there are many, both sides of the fruit argument. If it were as simple as some people in love with the word 'conflate' would have you believe, there wouldn't be such a lively national discussion about the concepts by a great variety of very educated and experienced thinkers and politicians and economists and historians.

Rather than simply provide you with a link favoring my opposing view to your fruit analogy, as if my selection(s) would be the end-all-be-all declaration of 'correct POV', I'll urge you to consider that there are many credible arguments to absorb and compare -- and you can easily find them on your own, if you truly wish to understand the issue. If, on the other hand, you are simply so incensed with the runaway compensation packages negotiated by public unions in many states that you only wish to demonize, certainly there is no point in trying to understand.

Research, yourself, read, and come to your own conclusions -- but just to make sure I offer you an opportunity to see there are credible opposing views to your statement above, other than my own, I submit a couple of starters:

Ezra Klein - You can't separate public and private unions

and, once again, a liberal / conservative commentary exchange between columnists David Brooks and Mark Shields on PBS ... including exactly some of this very question:

Shields, Brooks on Collective Bargaining's Future, Shutdown Chances, Libya | PBS NewsHour | Feb. 25, 2011 | PBS

Also consider that this very question of comparison has, in fact, also been addressed numerous times with links in the course of this thread ... contrary to what some mentally disturbed individuals acknowledge.
 
Old 02-26-2011, 01:52 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,374,464 times
Reputation: 29064
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
If it were as simple as some people in love with the word 'conflate' would have you believe, there wouldn't be such a lively national discussion about the concepts by a great variety of very educated and experienced thinkers and politicians and economists and historians.
You mean it hasn't helped the two of you to bond?
 
Old 02-26-2011, 02:11 PM
 
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río Porciúncula
14,518 posts, read 15,203,158 times
Reputation: 10360
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Hmmm ... well, before you declare apples and oranges as having nothing in common, consider that they are both fruit ... and are often found together in fruit salad. And before you declare that public and private unions have no common functions to the benefit of society, you might consider reading varying opinions on that very subject -- of which there are many, both sides of the fruit argument.
Sir (or madam), you failed to understand my analogy. The analogy of apples and oranges is often used to illustrate a situation where two alternatives have major differences and major similarities. Apples and oranges are both fruit but only one is a citrus fruit.

If a private sector union squeezes the nuts of an employer too hard the employer goes broke, and the capital and employees go to other companies. If a public sector union squeezes the nuts of a government too hard the government becomes defective and everybody loses. Unions in the private sector know they can't kill the golden goose. In the public sector the goose cannot be allowed to die because we all die with it, but presently the public sector unions care more about their well being whether or not the government survives. (Or they believe the government's goose is immortal--e.g. the taxpayers have endlessly deep pockets.) We are currently headed towards a situation where we all lose.

I dismiss the rest of your post as not productive for me to respond to. Conflate that!
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