Pensions or Teachers? (San Francisco: employment, school district, college)

[OC Investor2]

Originally Posted by Brenda-by-the-sea

The rest of the story is that when that engineer or nurse leaves the work place at 5:00 p.m. or whenever, their workday is over. They don't have another three or four hours of work they have to finish after dinner before they can relax or go to bed. A survey of actual teacher work hours in the late 90's found that the average teacher works about 2,200 hours a year. If you worked 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, never missed a day and never took a vacation you'd work 2080 hours a year. You'd still have to find a way to get in an extra solid three weeks of work to equal a teacher's work load in hours. Yes, they live very compressed lives with 55-60 hour work weeks for 40 weeks of the year and then 12 weeks of "vacation" (during which they'll have to go back to college to maintain their continuing education requirements), but their total annual hours exceed those who work the 8-5 schedule. Many nurses work 3-day workweeks because they do 12-hour shifts. Do you think they also getting some kind of cushy deal because they get four days a week off?




Sure. That's true for everyone. Doctors, lawyers, bricklayers, veterinarians, city managers...we should all do it for the professional fulfillment, not the money. But the Missionary Hypothesis -- that your work should be a personal sacrifice that eschews worldly gain -- is something that people always apply to other people's jobs, never their own. I'd wager that if I asked you if you find your job fulfilling you'd say "yes." But if I asked you if that personal fulfillment should serve as part of your compensation package and thereby justify a substandard salary you'd say "no" (probably with some colorful modifiers attached). Everyone believes they are overworked and underpaid. But only the naive think that the grass is greener on the other side of another occupation's fence.

You're joking, right? There are very few well compensated white collar professions that do. Most Upper middle income professional jobs require loads of extra hours. I do 45-60 a week myself + overnight travel. Why do you think they all have smartphones & check work email 24/7?

[Brenda-by-the-sea]

Originally Posted by OC Investor2

I do 45-60 a week myself + overnight travel.

And what's your annual salary and benefits package?

[Brenda-by-the-sea]

Originally Posted by OC Investor2

Bill Gates never graduated college - should he be paid more if he finishes up his Harvard BA?

As with most of the super rich, he isn't paid a salary and works on his own terms. Nobody pays him anything; he lives off of investment income.

[OC Investor2]

Originally Posted by Brenda-by-the-sea

And what's your annual salary and benefits package?

$120k ish. depending on bonus & performance -7ish% SSI ( and the 1/2 my employer pays) - the $8-9k annually for Health ( just the insurance. does'nt cover any out of pocket, which many teachers do not pay either) - the 15% I have to put aside for retirement because I have no pension.

I also have less job security then teachers. Was laid off once and lost 6 months income. No tenure in my profession - despite 17 years experience with top performance ratings every year. I am in a high stress sales job. If I miss my numbers, say, twice, - I'll be gone. Period.

And also unlike teachers, as my income has grown, my employers expect my responsibilites to increase as well. I've been given more people to manage, more complex and larger businesses & customers to handle. I don't do the same work I did 10 years ago and expect to get paid more for it because I've done it more times or gotten more education in my field (which I have). I only get paid more when I produce more.

Lastly I work 52 weeks a year (less 2 weeks vacation) not 40ish.

Yet when you add it all up, I don't make any more then my sons 1st grade teacher. And she gets better bennies. Plus, she is doing the same work, (granted, probably significantly better, but that's not always the case) that she did when she started - or that a new teacher 2 years out of college could do for less.

[.highnlite]

Originally Posted by OC Investor2

$120k ish. depending on bonus & performance -7ish% SSI ( and the 1/2 my employer pays) - the $8-9k annually for Health ( just the insurance. does'nt cover any out of pocket, which many teachers do not pay) - the 15% I have to put aside for retirement because I have no pension.

I also have less job security then teachers. Was laid off once and lost 6 months income. No tenure in my profession - despite 17 years experience with top performance ratings every year. I am in a high stress sales job. If I miss my numbers, say, twice, - I'll be gone. Period.

And also unlike teachers, as my income has grown, my employers - surprise, surprise - expect my responsibilites to increase as well. I've been given more people to manage, more complex and larger businesses & customers to handle. I don't do the same work I did 10 years ago and expect to get paid more for it because I've done it more often or gotten more education in my field (which I have). I only get paid more when I produce more.

Here is a test I think you should try. Take a glass of water, a full glass, put your finger in it, now withdraw your finger. The size of the hole you leave behind is the size of the effect you will leave on our future.

A teacher touches the future, a teacher changes the future, each and every day.

Yet, look at the difference in your compensation. You can tell what a society values by the compensation it pays.

You have shown that you do not value the contribution to our future that teachers provide, you and many others who are what you are today because of teachers, denigrate them at every possible chance.

Pretty ugly.

Was laid off once and lost 6 months income. No tenure in my profession - despite 17 years experience with top performance ratings every year. I am in a high stress sales job. If I miss my numbers, say, twice, - I'll be gone. Period.

If in 17 years you have not been able to make investments that allow you to cruise through the down times, you need to recheck your priorities.

[OC Investor2]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Here is a test I think you should try. Take a glass of water, a full glass, put your finger in it, now withdraw your finger. The size of the hole you leave behind is the size of the effect you will leave on our future.

A teacher touches the future, a teacher changes the future, each and every day.

Yet, look at the difference in your compensation. You can tell what a society values by the compensation it pays.

You have shown that you do not value the contribution to our future that teachers provide, you and many others who are what you are today because of teachers, denigrate them at every possible chance.

Pretty ugly.



If in 17 years you have not been able to make investments that allow you to cruise through the down times, you need to recheck your priorities.

Did you get that bolded part from a Hallmark teachers card or an NEA brochure?

I value what teachers - some of them - bring to the table. I just think they are overpaid. That's what happens when you bribe the people who set your salary with campaign contributions. I'm sure I'd be making wages way above market value if I slipped by boss an enevople full of cash right before my annual reviews, but somehow thats illegal for the rest of us. Wonder why?

[AndyV]

Great thread . it seems that the only people who really support the unsustainable wages, benefits and Union Collusion with politicians that public sector employees enjoy are Unionized public sector employees; and even most of them don't really want to talk about it publicly as, at some level, the numbers speak for themselves. And regarding paying people more because they have a miscellaneous Bachelors/Masters degree, just look at the growth of superflous, indoctrination type curriculums, read Sociology, where a lot of this 'give me more' mentality comes from.

[.highnlite]

Originally Posted by OC Investor2

Did you get that bolded part from a Hallmark teachers card or an NEA brochure?

I value what teachers - some of them - bring to the table. I just think they are overpaid. That's what happens when you bribe the people who set your salary with campaign contributions. I'm sure I'd be making wages way above market value if I slipped by boss an enevople full of cash right before my annual reviews, but somehow thats illegal for the rest of us. Wonder why?

A decent salary for a professional would allow them to buy a house and a new car, with some left over for a vacation.

Teacher's salaries don't allow that, hard to think of them as overpaid.

I talked with a teacher the other day. She teaches in Palmdale. She has set her priorities, this summer she will go homeless, as she cannot afford her car payment, rent, and the board for her horse and two pack mules. Now, she could sell the stock and afford rent, but, she choses to have a life over a home. She should not have to make that choice.


Teachers made you what you are, a snarky comment about teachers just shows resentment, the question is, why?

thread . it seems that the only people who really support the unsustainable wages, benefits and Union Collusion with politicians that public sector employees enjoy are Unionized public sector employees; and even most of them don't really want to talk about it publicly as, at some level, the numbers speak for themselves. And regarding paying people more because they have a miscellaneous Bachelors/Masters degree, just look at the growth of superflous, indoctrination type curriculums, read Sociology, where a lot of this 'give me more' mentality comes from.

My "nut' radar just lit up.

[AndyV]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

My "nut' radar just lit up.

I can't decide if the numbers, (public sector pay/benefits), speak for themselves or that there is a 'give me more' mentality amongst liberal arts teachers comment lit up your 'nut' radar.

[.highnlite]

Your whole point rang of nutdom, and, an intense lack of knowledge of teacher retirement systems. Not to worry, likely you are a conservative, I would not expect rational analysis from a conservative.

It may interest you to know, that on the whole, the only money a retired teacher gets as pension, is money they paid in, nothing extra from the district or state.

Go ahead and research that.