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Old 06-03-2011, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. Metro Area
278 posts, read 679,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post

Don't let the door hit you on the way out...
I won't
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:16 AM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,888,773 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephineBeth View Post
Well. I guess I must be abnormal. I paid $3207 in income taxes last year and my salary was not much higher than the $59K quoted above (not even close to the $100K!). Head of household with 2 dependants. I WISH I paid $400-600....where do you get these numbers???? They certainly aren't the case for me or anyone else I know! Of course I have no mortgage deduction since no way in hell I could ever afford to buy here in this city. I am calculating the costs for my move out of here and by my calculations assuming the exact same salary I will pocket $229 more a MONTH due to the tax differential. That might not seem like a ton but for me it's a lot.

And of course my student loan interest of $9000 is not deductible since I make just enough over to not be able to use it. Lovely. And let's not forget that, due to the crappy economy, all that educational loan repayment got me the job that doesn't make enough to actually live well but too much to take advantage of all the free programs. Lovely again.

Also as far as car registration. I just paid $240 to register a 2003 Toyota Highlander. I'm sorry - that's WAY TOO HIGH. In contrast my sister just bought a brand new van - very nice one. Cost? $43 to register in a state that has everyone pay the same.

I'm pretty bitter. I've watched services go down, schools lose tons of teachers, still the same crappy government service everywhere you go, and yet my costs keep going UP. NOT DOWN.

If I wasn't getting the heck out of dodge as soon as possible I'd be biting my nails off waiting for the rent increase myself. Last year my rent went up $100. Year before the same. And so on. I started 5 years ago around $1100 and I'm at almost $1600. But still a better deal than some other areas. 700 sq ft of old fixtures, dish*non*washer, peeling cabinets, and stained carpet. Joy. BUT I have great weather!

Nothing personal to anyone here really - I'm just really done with this state.
I echo your sentiment albeit at a higher income (not that it makes a difference).. I have recruiters calling from facebook and google but I am honestly done w/ this state. Its not worth it ... I share all your complaints.. the end goal being able to afford a house and provide for your family in comfort .. that's just not a smart thing to do here.. and throwing away near $15-$20k a year in rent isn't something I am going to do all my life either. I loved your comments about the run down cabinets and appliances. you would think w/ the extortionist rent that people charge here they'd update their apts... I have never seen so much old junk in my life before being in this state.. I guess everyone (even landlords) are just as broke as everyone else...As you said, its nothing personal. It's just stupid.
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:27 AM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,888,773 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephineBeth View Post
Please tell me how to accomplish this. Truly. Perhaps it is the definition of "decent" life in which we differ. Because, to me, a decent life includes being able to OWN a home, provide for my kids, have decent cars (I drive a 7 year old Toyota - I couldn't even dream of a Mercedes nor afford the upkeep), pay off the student loans I needed to get to make that $80K AND have some left over to do things with - a vacation maybe every other year, extra services for my Autistic son, a new bike for my kid - and so on.

I live in a small apartment. I don't eat Mac and Cheese but I also don't spend over $400 a month on groceries. Admittedly my student loan debt is high and that affects it but even without that it would be exceptionally tight to afford a mortgage, PMI, AND property taxes!

Like I said maybe it's the "decent" part on which we differ which is fine - but I'm still very curious to know your definition. I have nothing extravagant at all - second hand couch, cheap IKEA tables, no fancy gadgets and I only this year even got a LCD TV (had to save for that one).
Know that there are lots of people that feel this way... I went to school w/ someone from orange county.. Got a Masters in CS .. After a year working after college, I made the move to Cali.. I called him up naturally to ask about the state.. He laughed... I asked him what was so funny.. he communicated.. there was a reason he didn't return to the state .. the valley (one of the hottest areas for techies) ... said the costs are just stupid. His parents lived here long ago so they lived fine in OC .. but he just mentioned.. on code monkey's salary .. you'll be living like we did in college dorms ...the taxes.. the idiocy.. that's just not a life he wanted. Loved growing up here but it just wasn't a place he wanted to start a life. Same sentiment was echo'd from a guy moving from CA (manager) on a project at my old company .... So yeah, some people just see things differently Josephine ... Its nothing personal as you said .. It's just that there are other places in America that offer a much more comfortable life.. a lot less taxes and require a lot less income... its not like all the income gets you more in CA .. the only thing you get more of is federal taxes... lack of eligibility for tax credits.. etc .. all the extra income goes directly into rent/etc ... so all the cali income bump does is make it appear in various tax/credits that you are rich when you really aren't. Federal taxes/etc don't index for cost of living... But enough of all that .. I look forward to June 15th when we hear about the state budget.. the results are going to be nothing short of comical. Today's job/economic report was nothing short of abismal ... We are entering into another dip in the economy as expected and the only thing you see around cali is higher rent/taxes... in the bay area largely because yet to blow up bubble companies are making cash rain again... *sigh.

*Cheers to your move Josephine
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:57 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,449,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
. We are entering into another dip in the economy as expected and the only thing you see around cali is higher rent/taxes... in the bay area largely because yet to blow up bubble companies are making cash rain again...
Higher rents = higher demand. Increased rents conflicts with the idea that California is miserable.

The situation in California is no different than other established states with first-class economies. There is no other state with California's economy, but a lot lower costs. Some people can get lucky and find a great job in a lower cost area, but this isn't something most people can do.

If you want an innovative career in tech (science, etc) you're most likely going to have to live in a high cost area.....that's just the reality of the situation.
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Old 06-04-2011, 03:26 AM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,888,773 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Higher rents = higher demand. Increased rents conflicts with the idea that California is miserable.

The situation in California is no different than other established states with first-class economies. There is no other state with California's economy, but a lot lower costs. Some people can get lucky and find a great job in a lower cost area, but this isn't something most people can do.

If you want an innovative career in tech (science, etc) you're most likely going to have to live in a high cost area.....that's just the reality of the situation.
overcrowdedpast participle, past tense of overcrowd (Verb)
1. Fill (accommodations or a space) beyond what is usual or comfortable: "overcrowded dormitories".
2. House (people or animals) in accommodations that are too confined

Or you can live there for long enough and save enough so that you can cash out and live somewhere else (more comfortable).. There is that option .. oh' and the ability to work from wherever you want is greatly afforded by all the wonderful tech that has been created.

True .. It's in high demand and there is only so much land ... So basically you have people cramming in and fighting over ever decreasing resources... That creates a pretty uncomfortable scenario for everyone... Think of it like a room that everyone wants to be it .. at first its at 1/2 capacity then it grows to 2x .. Sure, you're in the room now but you're uncomfortable as hell .. That's sort of what the valley feels like.. uncomfortable and stupid as hell.


You work in a place w/ the most advanced technology and come home to a run down apartment w/ a fridge/stove that is from the 80s... You pay the price for a crummy 2/1.5 of what someone w/ a mortgage would pay in a nice spacious 4/3.5....At some point you have to use your brain and realize .. well the obvious... Places become not worth it so much when factors like the above begin to stack up.. A fool is born everyday... I don't expect people to stop trying to cram themselves in making it uncomfortable for everyone...

Eventually though, w/ the economic factors pressing down their throats.. companies will have to start using their brains too.

Rent has gone up $400 on the type of unit I have.. Why is that? Well, a lot of goofy companies are being bought up ... by even goofier companies...

Will it last, nope .... and when it comes crashing down like the .com bust (as mentioned from a co-worker who was here during that time) .. this area will look like a ghost town.

Graph'd :


I keep a close ear to the ground and drive around when I have a chance through the small business areas.. over the past year I have seen more and more 'for lease' signs up on small office buildings.. i have actually seen this gem sit vacant for 2 years : Bayfront Plaza sanjose, ca - Google Maps

Sure, you hear about the big names hiring a couple thousand here and there.. but the big story is in the small businesses shuttering .. moving elsewhere. I have seen the slow and steady progress across companies in the bay... I spoke about a reoccurring slow-down .. that is just now becoming a reality for markets for some reason... In the years that lie ahead, demand will be for jobs anywhere they can be found... Skilled workers included.. companies will take note of this, and the smart ones will use this opportunity to position themselves for lower opex.....

This trend can't continue in America for much longer w/o businesses being impacted :
Labor's Share Of National Income Drops To Lowest In History


Unless of course they expect the wage slaves in china to keep doing stuff like this : Chinese teen reportedly sells kidney to buy Apple iPad 2 - latimes.com

Consumption is going to hit the skids and take these silly companies with it ... I see lots of trouble ahead IMO and the last place I want to be is in a place that burns through my capital like its camping fire wood... And so demand is up (for now) .. and I know lots of people at work who make 100K+ who live paycheck to paycheck and are on ARM mortgages because they can't even afford fixed rate 30 year mortgages... A fool is born everyday .. There's always going to be that fool who wants to cram themselves and 10 more into a confined and uncomfortable room.. Doesn't mean everyone sees the 'comfort' in doing so.
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,449,227 times
Reputation: 4321
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
Or you can live there for long enough and save enough so that you can cash out and live somewhere else (more comfortable).. There is that option .. oh' and the ability to work from wherever you want is greatly afforded by all the wonderful tech that has been created.
But occurring to you the costs are so high people can't save...it all goes to taxes, rent, etc. Regardless, you're missing the point, the point is that if someone is interested in building a career in tech, science or other high-skill industries they are more than likely going to have to live in a high cost area. The fact that some people are able to pursue other options is irrelevant to this point, as the majority cannot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
You work in a place w/ the most advanced technology and come home to a run down apartment w/ a fridge/stove that is from the 80s... You pay the price for a crummy 2/1.5 of what someone w/ a mortgage would pay in a nice spacious 4/3.5....
This is pure hyperbole, someone with a good tech job can easily afford a decent place.

The Silicon Valley wasn't a ghost town after the .com bubble and even if some of the recent companies created in the area aren't sustainable its nothing like the .com bubble.

In terms of commercial real estate, it was over-built during the real estate bubble and as a result vacancies are higher right now than they usually are. Most of the "small businesses" that have closed are related to real estate, that is, real estate agents, mortgage brokers, construction related, etc. Where I rent there were a handful of construction related businesses that went bust and there are still a few empty places that they can't seem to rent out. But I guess you don't see how this is actually good for small business, right now I pay less in rent than I would if I relocated to supposedly low cost areas like Texas.
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Old 06-04-2011, 01:21 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,888,773 times
Reputation: 1217
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
But occurring to you the costs are so high people can't save...it all goes to taxes, rent, etc. Regardless, you're missing the point, the point is that if someone is interested in building a career in tech, science or other high-skill industries they are more than likely going to have to live in a high cost area. The fact that some people are able to pursue other options is irrelevant to this point, as the majority cannot.
According to me, you can't save enough if you are saving to buy in Cali .. and the differential between what you make in Cali vs. another state is eaten up by taxes/etc so you don't save much more in CAli then you will elsewhere... (in general). What's the point of building a career if you are going to live like a hobo? No seriously, i want you to answer this question? Its one I asked myself ... which is why I am willing to leave California at this point and take a (potential) hit to my career. The majority don't build anything ... I work alongside plenty adults my father's age who are still software engineers w/ an extra # or two at the end of their title... The majority don't build anything (amazing) in their careers... They are just techies making maybe 20-40k more than the starting engineer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
This is pure hyperbole, someone with a good tech job can easily afford a decent place.
From people I talk to that is not true at all ... and surveying just the (salary) portion of my income ... There is no way i would be able to easily afford a decent place... That's the reason rent is so high in the valley.. All the techies are renting ... In FL, I see way more young engineers in Orlando buying homes than in the valley.. I know no friends who are alumnis from my college buying homes in the valley .. I know a guy w/ a wife and kid already who aren't able to (no where near close) .. Both are techies living in Los Altos. Pure FUD what you speak of.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
The Silicon Valley wasn't a ghost town after the .com bubble and even if some of the recent companies created in the area aren't sustainable its nothing like the .com bubble.
K, the term ghost town was too harsh but he spoke of quite visible vacancies in living units and corporate centers .... I already see this and the 'correction' hasn't occurred.
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
But occurring to you the costs are so high people can't save...it all goes to taxes, rent, etc. Regardless, you're missing the point, the point is that if someone is interested in building a career in tech, science or other high-skill industries they are more than likely going to have to live in a high cost area. The fact that some people are able to pursue other options is irrelevant to this point, as the majority cannot.
According to me, you can't save enough if you are saving to buy in Cali .. and the differential between what you make in Cali vs. another state is eaten up by taxes/etc so you don't save much more in CAli then you will elsewhere... (in general). What's the point of building a career if you are going to live like a hobo? No seriously, i want you to answer this question? Its one I asked myself ... which is why I am willing to leave California at this point and take a (potential) hit to my career. The majority don't build anything ... I work alongside plenty adults my father's age who are still software engineers w/ an extra # or two at the end of their title... The majority don't build anything (amazing) in their careers... They are just techies making maybe 20-40k more than the starting engineer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
This is pure hyperbole, someone with a good tech job can easily afford a decent place.
From people I talk to that is not true at all ... and surveying just the (salary) portion of my income ... There is no way i would be able to easily afford a decent place... That's the reason rent is so high in the valley.. All the techies are renting ... In FL, I see way more young engineers in Orlando buying homes than in the valley.. I know no friends who are alumnis from my college buying homes in the valley .. I know a guy w/ a wife and kid already who aren't able to (no where near close) .. Both are techies living in Los Altos. Pure FUD what you speak of.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
In terms of commercial real estate, it was over-built during the real estate bubble and as a result vacancies are higher right now than they usually are. Most of the "small businesses" that have closed are related to real estate, that is, real estate agents, mortgage brokers, construction related, etc. Where I rent there were a handful of construction related businesses that went bust and there are still a few empty places that they can't seem to rent out. But I guess you don't see how this is actually good for small business, right now I pay less in rent than I would if I relocated to supposedly low cost areas like Texas.
Not true. All the closures I have seen have been either tech or biotech. The companies logos are still present on some of the buildings. The small business confidence speaks to this : . Sure vacancies reduce commercial real estate rental prices, but the issue is the vacancies to begin with .. and like I said, on my rides through corporate parks/etc, i see vacancies increasing not decreasing .. and I dont see many biting. I am glad you found a nice cheap place .. but here in the valley, I observe the trends everyday...

You hear nothing about the biotech industry anymore ...
You hear mainly about a bunch of social media startups ...Many of which will fail .. Many of which are overvalued and will cause great pain .. There are big names that will survive the cleansing of all the stupid social media companies but these will be few .. and will not be a driver for employment.

This is fine though, I am seeing things one way. You another.
I continue to thank you for providing your perspective. At the end of the day, I feel the points and observations I make go against it which make me feel more confident in how I am concluding. It's o.k if you feel the same about my points.
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:31 PM
 
724 posts, read 1,471,676 times
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It appears the anecdotes of California's bad economy are coming from actual people with experience. There is just no reason why no many people would make up stories like this. You don't here ANYONE making up anecdotal evidence about how terrible the Texas economy is. The people challenging the evidence just come across as the dopes who got the state in such bad economic straights.
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:40 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,888,773 times
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Wonderful examples of the junk scams that are driving the valley right now :
Where Did Groupon’s Billion Dollars Go? – AllThingsD
Groupon is Effectively Insolvent - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Groupon-is-Effectively-minyanville-3764150861.html - broken link)
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:47 PM
 
26,591 posts, read 52,303,280 times
Reputation: 20438
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
According to me, you can't save enough if you are saving to buy in Cali .. and the differential between what you make in Cali vs. another state is eaten up by taxes/etc so you don't save much more in CAli then you will elsewhere... (in general). What's the point of building a career if you are going to live like a hobo? No seriously, i want you to answer this question? Its one I asked myself ... which is why I am willing to leave California at this point and take a (potential) hit to my career. The majority don't build anything ... I work alongside plenty adults my father's age who are still software engineers w/ an extra # or two at the end of their title... The majority don't build anything (amazing) in their careers... They are just techies making maybe 20-40k more than the starting engineer.
I've posted before about a young couple that are living their dream in the SF Bay Area... He is 24 and she 23, they both are the first in their families to attend college. He is a Bay Area Police Officer and she is Registered Nurse.

They make over 200k, have great benefits and bought a nice home... it can be done.

Quote:
From people I talk to that is not true at all ... and surveying just the (salary) portion of my income ... There is no way i would be able to easily afford a decent place... That's the reason rent is so high in the valley.. All the techies are renting ... In FL, I see way more young engineers in Orlando buying homes than in the valley.. I know no friends who are alumnis from my college buying homes in the valley .. I know a guy w/ a wife and kid already who aren't able to (no where near close) .. Both are techies living in Los Altos. Pure FUD what you speak of.
I'm in Oakland and have reduced rents an average of 5%... rents in my area have declined... Not everywhere in the Bay Area has escalating rent.

As to the Texas question... I've posted before about couples I know that have moved there... some love it and some don't and one returned to the Bay Area.

The biggest complaint was the weather and the second was the high property tax rate.
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