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Old 06-17-2011, 08:17 PM
 
26,115 posts, read 28,514,332 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
To be honest, I don't even notice the taxes at this point... I've lived here since 1983, when I was only 6 years old, so it's pretty much all I know! To me they're just normal, and when I attended college in Oregon, things seemed REALLY cheap without that sales tax.
This is how governments take more and more of our income in taxes over time.

This gradual process you've described is the way we give away our economic, social, and political liberties....one baby step at a time. Some kind of security (miltary or economic) is always the reason given for having our rights taken away.
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Old 06-17-2011, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,451,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
Since you don't want to, I'll try to answer this. Socialism works well in small countries with low corruption.
Except that when you look beyond Europe you see that this is false. China has done very well, yet its both large and has more corruption than the US. Japan is large (population wise) with equivalent corruption as the US.

Corruption is a problem regardless of the social model a country has, size on the other hand doesn't matter.

Regardless, the "high tax" states with larger social models are also the states with the largest and most innovative economies...
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:41 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,889,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
Since you don't want to, I'll try to answer this. Socialism works well in small countries with low corruption. Norway & Sweden both fit this description. Greeces is small but has always been corrupt. Germany is somewhere in between the 2 extremes. Their biggest problem is the very low birth rate they've had for the last 20 or 30 years. They won't have enough young people to support all the old people in coming years.

The US is both too big and too corrupt for a full scale welfare state to work. We can't handle the programs we already have.

I'm sure this argument won't convince those who are ideologically committed to a Sweden style welfare state, but there it is. Political ideologies are a lot like religion. People believe in both regardless of the facts.
Norway is no different then the arab countries in the fact that they make a huge amount of money from natural resources... This wealth is distributed amongst its populous in various ways... and is a huge sum given the size of the country.. Immigration is very strict and so the income helps prop up a system that distributes a standard of living that is not necessarily worked for.

Sweden is the tax shelter of the world and makes its money similarly through the resource of money.. immigration is very strict as well.

Correct.. Germany is in between the extremes.. The people there though are very hard working and don't abuse the system... Germany is sadly allowing a lot of random immigration to solve their age distribution issue. I spent some time there.. Talked w/ people ... and yes, this is having a big impact on them ... Its a very industrious member of the EU and their worth ethic is quite commendable.

Greece is corrupt right... but beyond that they aren't industrious either...
Their social system is far to generous (beyond the issue of corruption) ...

The UK is of similar financial health .. they don't have a big pool of natural resources.. there isn't much corruption... there are just overextending in handouts/public sector.

"The US is both too big and too corrupt for a full scale welfare state to work. We can't handle the programs we already have."

Agreed.. and we have too diverse a population that pulls the country in opposing ways for agendas not central to the well being of the whole...

You made good points.. and they have weight.. I acknowledge this when I see em.. No need to be religious about views... sometimes they can be wrong and there is nothing to be lost in admitting that .. accepting valid points.. helps you grow and understand more.. *Cheers
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:42 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,889,265 times
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Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
I get your point but that house is tacky.
LULz.. random zillow image aligned w/ the price... Not the actual one I am interested in.
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:47 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,889,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Except that when you look beyond Europe you see that this is false. China has done very well, yet its both large and has more corruption than the US. Japan is large (population wise) with equivalent corruption as the US.

Corruption is a problem regardless of the social model a country has, size on the other hand doesn't matter.

Regardless, the "high tax" states with larger social models are also the states with the largest and most innovative economies...
Correlation does not equal causation and we have been over this point Ad nauseam. China is not doing well btw .. they have done well so far .. akin to shooting steroids and trashing your body in order to win a race.. but it will come back to haunt them .. This is already being reflected in a documented slow-down.. bubbles.. environmental pollution (a huge exodus of the wealthy individuals who got rich whoring out their country, people, and land)... Instability due to the corruption/unfairness...Riots... etc.. they rule w/ a heavy hand there so it keeps a lot of things suppressed ... during their roid' injections people are more focused on the growth... its when it slows that the problems will become apparent (which it already is).

The comment thought centered on places where big govt. socialist programs worked... there are many variables... and there is the component that the political system.. immigration policies.. size/etc all play a part.. which they do .. It would take a dissertation to delve into this kinda topic
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,451,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
Sweden is the tax shelter of the world and makes its money similarly through the resource of money.. immigration is very strict as well.
You're thinking of Switzerland kiddo....Sweden has a robust market economy, yet a rich social model. Your comment about immigration is way off as well:

Immigration to Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At this point you are just making stuff up, I know, it sucks when there are examples that conflict with your ideology.
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,451,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
Correlation does not equal causation and we have been over this point Ad nauseam.
Right and you still don't get it. The point isn't to derive causation from the correlation, instead its to refute the idea that high taxes and a rich social model are bad for business. These are counter-examples to the idea that high tax (and hence high service states) are bad for business.
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Old 06-18-2011, 12:01 AM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,889,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
You're thinking of Switzerland kiddo....Sweden has a robust market economy, yet a rich social model. Your comment about immigration is way off as well:

Immigration to Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At this point you are just making stuff up, I know, it sucks when there are examples that conflict with your ideology.
Misread ... saw switzerland instead of sweden. .. Happens sometimes... Congratulations.. To err is human .. At this point, i misread ... I know i made your friday ... Everyone look ... I misread sweden for switzerland...

Would everyone like me to do a full analysis of each EU member? Anyone? *crickets .. *yawn .. Good day
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Old 06-18-2011, 12:07 AM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,889,265 times
Reputation: 1217
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Right and you still don't get it. The point isn't to derive causation from the correlation, instead its to refute the idea that high taxes and a rich social model are bad for business. These are counter-examples to the idea that high tax (and hence high service states) are bad for business.
I don't see any 'high' services in California.. I see handouts.. I don't enjoy any of the "services" you speak of in my general day to day. It's redistribution .. There's a big difference.. If high taxes were used to provide equal services to the populous .. Equal/desired/essential services then there is justification .. Even so, it's a rigid system that depends on taxation for life support.. What happens when economic output decreases such that the same level of services cannot be supported? You ever in your living years see drastic reductions in govt. to fit new reduced income? Yeah, it doesn't happen much... So it's good while the gettin is good and stupid when a bone head thinks (when it aint so good) .. lets tax more to cover the shortfalls.. thats when it starts hurting business .. and when the services provided aren't services or essential and are just redistribution and overpaying a bunch of public workers.. that aint good for anything either...

So, you aren't providing a counter example like I stated many times before because you aren't looking at the big picture and all the variables...

I don't care to educate you.. you are married to your religious views...
The Business Relocation Coach: Calif. Business Departures Increasing -- Now Five Times Higher Than In 2009

From Jan. 1 of this year through this morning, June 16, we have had 129 disinvestment events occur, an average of 5.4 per week.
For all of last year, we saw an average of 3.9 events per week.
Comparing this year thus far with 2009, when the total was 51 events, essentially averaging 1 per week, our rate today is more than 5 times what it was then.

You can rant all you want about your views.. It's not going to change reality ... I see the reality.. and the future .. and already know the trend will only pick up momentum.. I spoke about this probably a year or two back .. Things gain momentum... By the time a trend starts.. it's too late. I've got a year left before I hit the high road.. Businesses and others already are.. So, you can keep on talking to yourself... Businesses and people are taking strategic action.. because they see what I see.. Continuing seeing what you see .. What is that you ask?

http://www.dailynews.com/ci_18281215....dailynews.com
San Antonio attracted Medtronic through its business-friendly, low-cost reputation.
"They are going to save 30 to 40 percent on all cost factors versus Los Angeles," he said. "And (workers) can live very comfortably very near the facility."
Better for the company.. Better life for its workers.. Simple reasoning. Save the California dream stories for the illegal immigrants.


http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/n...d.html?ana=lnk
"We looked all over the world, but nowhere really compared to Austin, in terms of engineering talent," Altera spokesman Steve Gabriel said.
Awww, I thought all the nerds were only in CA....

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...,4509354.story

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...5811817.column
No more crack for the druggies...

Reality is going to hit hard and there will be no Benni-copter to save you :


*Cheers mate

Last edited by yeahthatguy; 06-18-2011 at 12:22 AM..
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Old 06-18-2011, 10:37 AM
 
26,591 posts, read 52,313,328 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smdensbcs View Post
Not in my experience. I pay @ $1,600/yr property taxes on a home assessed at $340K. When I lived in CA, I paid $3,500/yr property tax on a condo purchased for $350K.

I'm not a math major, but I'm thinking property tax is higher in CA, specifically for those who couldn't buy their homes back in the 1970's. For those on the "good end" of Prop 13 who pay next to no property tax on the million dollar homes, property taxes are indeed lower. For the "next generation" of home buyers, property taxes are much much higher. Its like a teeter-totter - Generation Prop 13 gave themselves low taxes by shifting the tax burden to the next generation of California buyers. So ... you either pay up or you move out of state.
A typical home in the Bay Area city of Oakland bought during the housing price run-up has a tax rate of over 1.5%.

Bought for 598k in 2005 and the 2010 Property Tax is $8,880... for a 1720 square feet 1950's ranch style home...

Today's buyers are doing much better than those that bought a few years ago because Prop 13 locks in the new buyer's lower lower assessment based on value at the time of purchase going forward...

Those that bought a few years ago... those notch baby buyers that have been able to hold on will see their tax bills escalate much higher than those that recently bought because any reductions granted are temporary...
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