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Old 02-15-2015, 10:46 PM
 
9,715 posts, read 13,292,752 times
Reputation: 3318

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
Real Estate has always been cyclical... all Prop 13 did was add some stability when it comes to future property tax and takes the guess work out of the equation... voters can at any time approve additional taxes and in my city it has happened more than 25 times...

Buying a home in the 1930's or 1970 has no effect on Prop 13 which became law in 1978.

Many parts of the State were hard hit... I can document 500k homes that lost 80% in value around 2009... every block had foreclosed homes here... other areas were down 50%...

2009 through 2012 were golden buy opportunities... and many bought and in the SF Bay Area up to 40% bought with cash.
I believe something needs to be done about Prop 13 and commercial property, which is basically what all those homes in a trust are. Taxes were supposed to reset when the properties changed hands, which never happens with these trusts.

Maybe Prop 13 should apply for a primary residence but that's it?
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Old 02-15-2015, 11:03 PM
 
26,579 posts, read 52,073,429 times
Reputation: 20358
Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
I believe something needs to be done about Prop 13 and commercial property, which is basically what all those homes in a trust are. Taxes were supposed to reset when the properties changed hands, which never happens with these trusts.

Maybe Prop 13 should apply for a primary residence but that's it?
You are very much on point...

Prior to the passage of Prop 13 repeated attempts were made to index the homeowner exemption to inflation... the $7500 exemption was quite significant when a modest home could be bought for 10 to $12,000... over time, it has become almost insignificant.

Instead of the legislature taking a stand... they were glad to leave it to the people and never thought it would have any chance of passage and in the eleventh hour a competing measure was put on the ballot... too little too late... it also didn't help that stories of corruption and even suicide in various assessor's offices around the state plus double digit property tax increase at the same time of gas lines and stagflation...

Governor Brown has said Prop 13 is the third rail of politics and I still believe this is true... even so... the electorate did modify the Prop 13 2/3 vote requirement to 55% for new schools...

There are limits on how much can be passed on and how...

The flip side is so few that I know are interested in keeping a parents property... most have siblings and someone always wants cash and often the others cannot buy out those wanting property sold and even if they do... portions of the property sold will be reassessed... last month one family home left to 4 siblings was sold and one bought the others out... so 75% was assessed to market. A home on my street was left to an only child and she wanted nothing to do with her folks home in Oakland CA... wanted it sold ASAP
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Old 02-15-2015, 11:29 PM
 
Location: At the center of the universe!
1,177 posts, read 1,751,860 times
Reputation: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceece View Post
Kind of makes you wonder what people in Texas talked about before CA got into trouble.
New York
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Old 02-15-2015, 11:31 PM
 
Location: At the center of the universe!
1,177 posts, read 1,751,860 times
Reputation: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don9 View Post
"Texas only mildly effected by the housing bubble"

Now why would that be?
- Maybe in Texas the appraisers didn't appraise homes values 5 times higher than actual value
- Maybe Texas would not allow banks to approve people for subprime loans with little or no income and had no way to pay
- Maybe Texas didn't allow predatory realtors and loan brokers to operate in the state

The housing crisis was caused by federal and local governments in collusion with the real estate industry, banks and wall street and they pulled off the greatest heist in history. Look how many people had their wealth swapped for deep debt.
So in Texas they made all the right moves? The opposite of California.
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Old 02-16-2015, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 17,412,154 times
Reputation: 4314
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbell75 View Post
Ummm yea, the mid 80s CA under Reagan is NOTHING like the CA of today. I said "decades", not eons. You know how long a decade is right? Forever 21 was founded in 1984. You DO realize that was 31 years ago right? CA was still actually quite affordable for the middle-class to live and do business in back then. Not anymore.
The cost of doing business, the regulations, etc haven't changed much over the last few decades when you adjust for inflation. You seem to be conflating the cost to run a business with the costs to purchase a home, etc and the two aren't the same.

I wouldn't save much at all if I moved my business to a similar area in another state, the only way I'd get cheaper commercial rents, etc is if I moved to a less developed area and/or a area with lower socioeconomic status.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
I believe something needs to be done about Prop 13 and commercial property, which is basically what all those homes in a trust are. Taxes were supposed to reset when the properties changed hands, which never happens with these trusts.

Maybe Prop 13 should apply for a primary residence but that's it?
Prop 13 is bad for primary residence as well, there is no reason why people all on the same block should pay dramatically different tax rates just due to the date they happened to purchase their home. Ultra always defends prop 13.....he owns a few rentals he purchased years ago.
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Old 02-16-2015, 12:09 AM
 
Location: O.C.
2,821 posts, read 2,739,662 times
Reputation: 2084
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalparadise View Post
I'll give you bookstores, because nobody opens those anymore, but what about (off the top of my head) Blue Bottle Coffee, Super Duper Burger, Umami Burger, Extreme Pizza, TCHO Chocolates, Jamba Juice, It's a Grind, Kashi, Rasta Taco, The Republic of Tea, Scharffen Berger Chocolates, Clif Bars, Lagunitas Brewing, Bear Republic Brewery, The Melt, Belcampo Meat Co., Cowgirl Creamery--all are restaurant/food/retail focused and have opened within about 20 years in California, with very little start-up money. Most started as mom-and-pop operations.There are many more. These are ones I could think of immediately.
Ive lived in SoCal pretty much my entire life and Ive only heard of Jamba Juice and Unami Burger off that list. Its obvious you aren't involved in the stock market or you would know that both Jamba and Unami (the two most well known on this list of yours) are not doing very well at all. Unami needed a $20 million private investment to help them expand and keep them afloat a few years back and they have still had several locations close, one being an LA location ironically. Jamba Juice has been taking some heat just earlier this week actually and their stock is down as they have fudged numbers reported to their investors, a big no-no. I don't think any of the others on your list are even publicly traded, still small mom and pop operations. We have no real way of knowing how they are doing since they are private. They could all be cash strapped and close to closing for all you know. There is really no point in arguing CA is anything less than a terrible state for business. Here are two relevant lists with CA at the bottom of all 50 states on one list for several years in a row now and one with CA receiving an F rating. Its also one of the worst states for taxes on businesses.

2014 Best & Worst States for Business | ChiefExecutive.net | Chief Executive magazine
http://www.economist.com/news/united...red-tape-blues
http://taxfoundation.org/article/201...-climate-index

Last edited by dexter14; 02-16-2015 at 12:18 AM..
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Old 02-16-2015, 04:29 AM
 
Location: Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco, California)
3,530 posts, read 4,250,548 times
Reputation: 3145
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbell75 View Post
Ive lived in SoCal pretty much my entire life and Ive only heard of Jamba Juice and Unami Burger off that list. Its obvious you aren't involved in the stock market or you would know that both Jamba and Unami (the two most well known on this list of yours) are not doing very well at all. Unami needed a $20 million private investment to help them expand and keep them afloat a few years back and they have still had several locations close, one being an LA location ironically. Jamba Juice has been taking some heat just earlier this week actually and their stock is down as they have fudged numbers reported to their investors, a big no-no. I don't think any of the others on your list are even publicly traded, still small mom and pop operations. We have no real way of knowing how they are doing since they are private. They could all be cash strapped and close to closing for all you know. There is really no point in arguing CA is anything less than a terrible state for business. Here are two relevant lists with CA at the bottom of all 50 states on one list for several years in a row now and one with CA receiving an F rating. Its also one of the worst states for taxes on businesses.

2014 Best & Worst States for Business | ChiefExecutive.net | Chief Executive magazine
The best and worst states for small business: Red tape blues | The Economist
2015 State Business Tax Climate Index | Tax Foundation
I thought your point was that California policies and taxes were too restrictive to small businesses (you specifically called out restaurants, bookstores and coffee shops). I gave you a few examples of small businesses (primarily related to food and food service, as that was the category you claimed was hardest hit by the state's oppressive poicies) that somehow negotiated these policies to become multi-unit businesses.

Shifting to talk about performance on the stock market clouds your point considerably when the subject is small business. That California small businesses are even able to find their way to being publicly traded would seem to refute your point. As to your criticism of this particular pair's performance on the market, please connect those dots for me, as (assuming your accounts are true) I can't figure out how their market performance is related to California's policies.

If they aren't good at profitably expanding or are cooking the books, as you claim, that's not related the climate in California, that's just bad business on their part.

The most notable small business success story in the selection which you conveniently overlooked is Lagunitas. This little Petaluma brewery was started in the founders' garage (using one of those home brew kits you buy on TV, no less) by transplants to California who came from really cheap, business-friendly areas of the country.

They have grown immensely and are among the most respected craft brewers in the country (their growth has actually slightly jeopardized their public perception of "craft"). They have now doubled their capacity and increased their distribution by opening a second facility in Chicago. I read recently that they are on course to be the largest independent brewery in the US. All from a garage in Petaluma... in business-toxic California.

You brought up coffee shops, too. The standout leader in the super-premium wave is Blue Bottle. They started in the Bay Area and immediately expanded to another small-business-toxic environment, NYC. LA will follow suit soon enough, as they have only recently expanded there.
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Old 02-16-2015, 12:06 PM
 
Location: O.C.
2,821 posts, read 2,739,662 times
Reputation: 2084
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalparadise View Post
I thought your point was that California policies and taxes were too restrictive to small businesses (you specifically called out restaurants, bookstores and coffee shops). I gave you a few examples of small businesses (primarily related to food and food service, as that was the category you claimed was hardest hit by the state's oppressive poicies) that somehow negotiated these policies to become multi-unit businesses.

Shifting to talk about performance on the stock market clouds your point considerably when the subject is small business. That California small businesses are even able to find their way to being publicly traded would seem to refute your point. As to your criticism of this particular pair's performance on the market, please connect those dots for me, as (assuming your accounts are true) I can't figure out how their market performance is related to California's policies.

If they aren't good at profitably expanding or are cooking the books, as you claim, that's not related the climate in California, that's just bad business on their part.

The most notable small business success story in the selection which you conveniently overlooked is Lagunitas. This little Petaluma brewery was started in the founders' garage (using one of those home brew kits you buy on TV, no less) by transplants to California who came from really cheap, business-friendly areas of the country.

They have grown immensely and are among the most respected craft brewers in the country (their growth has actually slightly jeopardized their public perception of "craft"). They have now doubled their capacity and increased their distribution by opening a second facility in Chicago. I read recently that they are on course to be the largest independent brewery in the US. All from a garage in Petaluma... in business-toxic California.

You brought up coffee shops, too. The standout leader in the super-premium wave is Blue Bottle. They started in the Bay Area and immediately expanded to another small-business-toxic environment, NYC. LA will follow suit soon enough, as they have only recently expanded there.

Fair enough, but did you look at any of the links I posted? For every small business success in CA, there are dozens of failures. It is still by far the worst state for small businesses.
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Old 02-16-2015, 12:12 PM
 
Location: On the water.
12,684 posts, read 7,431,579 times
Reputation: 10183
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbell75 View Post
Fair enough, but did you look at any of the links I posted? For every small business success in CA, there are dozens of failures. It is still by far the worst state for small businesses.
Have ya check statistics on small business failure rate - um, everywhere? You know, for comparisons.
Oh, nevermind. That would take the fun out of your posts.
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Old 02-16-2015, 12:14 PM
 
10,097 posts, read 7,504,397 times
Reputation: 5225
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbell75 View Post
Fair enough, but did you look at any of the links I posted? For every small business success in CA, there are dozens of failures. It is still by far the worst state for small businesses.
Exactly. There are successes and many failures in CA. I'm with CA to a certain degree no was supportive of all the regulations and fees they were placing on my company's location small here in LA but there were many times where I was like Good Lord is this really necessary? The model in which we have to adopt to which has more to do with the way other companies in the same field have created also seems like this is unnecessary vanity.

The boosters that defend every single little thing CA does as sensible are just boosting for the sake of it. The idea is "we're California so we know better than Podunk Texas where business is doing better".

There is a limit where you have to take off the rose colored sheds and say ok California is not the perfect golden state is claims to be and some of it is just ridiculous but I still love it.

Is that so wrong?
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