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Old 07-13-2011, 02:25 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,882,178 times
Reputation: 1217

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC2462 View Post
Ah, put a sock in it. You're 20 something years old. The playing field was a lot more level in the 80's, but you keep shifting the goalposts.
I'm not the one complaining about AA. How about you complainers put a sock in it. The field was not level in the 80's. If you picked up a history book and knew about historical cases waged against various discriminatory groups during that time, you wouldn't be saying what you're saying w/ your cliche'd one-liners.

People's mindsets don't die within a generation. The racist fools in power and position didn't change mindsets just because some laws were passed in the 60's-70's .. They kept their same racist views.. passed them along to their kids .. and a bit of it is actually still alive. This impacts opportunity, and AA rights that.

If you don't get it too bad. Because other more intelligent people do and thus why it is being upheld. So go put a sock in it and cry somewhere else about how life is soo unfair because of AA.

I am meerily providing people w/o a brain w/ the historical record and definitions. Sorry it gets your panties all in a bunch.

M
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Old 07-13-2011, 02:47 PM
 
452 posts, read 1,237,033 times
Reputation: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
To highlight a particular group ...
African American kids due to some 400 years of slavery have had their culture/identity erased. Up until the 1960's they weren't seen as equals and their parents were disadvantaged due to not having equal rights. My parents were alive during this time....

Affirmative action is an attempt to promote equal opportunity. It is often instituted in government and educational settings to ensure that minority groups within a society are included in all programs. The justification for affirmative action is to compensate for past discrimination, persecution or exploitation by the ruling class of a culture,[3] and to address existing discrimination.[4] The implementation of affirmative action, especially in the United States, is justified by disparate impact.

...
I am Japanese American. During WWII in 1942, my grandparents who had immigrated to the United States were arrested and locked up for 3 years in Manzanar Prison Camp. 110,000 other Americans of Japanese heritage were locked up in these camps. They had not done anything to deserve their freedom as AMERICAN CITIZENS being revoked. My grandparents lost their home in the San Pedro neighborhood of Los Angeles which was raided as it sat empty for three years. They lost all their income and had very little when they were finally released at the end of the war. The government did not help them and they were thrown to the streets to make a new life.

My parents are not rich and we live in the same neighborhood as my grandparents did, in San Pedro. Many Japanese Americans have moved to areas like Irvine or Ventura County as they fear for their lives due to the gang violence in San Pedro. My high school was 67% Hispanic, 20% white, 8% African American, and 3.5% Asian. I was bullied and told my family was "FOB" (Fresh off the Boat). My family makes $65,000 per year combined working very hard at our family owned dry cleaner. We are hardly rich in a state like California where buying a home costs over $500,000 in Los Angeles, even in San Pedro.

I got accepted to UCLA because I avoided joining gangs like many of my high school classmates, studied dilligently to make a better life for my kids in the future, and focused on the future. Yes, my grandparents were oppressed, but I can make a future by working hard on my own.

I do not qualify for affirmative action, and would not expect to. I don't need the government to make laws so that I fulfill quotas. And in fact affirmative action would likely work against me because I am Asian and other Asians are "too succsseful." We came from nothing and my heritage was oppressed, but the government is NOT going to tell me they "reserved spots" at certain school for me.

Jewish Americans may have come from families brutally murdered in the Holocaust by Germany. Likewise a Ukranian American who is white might have had their family murdered by the Soviety Union and fled to the USA for freedom. A Vietnamese student might come from a family who escaped the brutal war in Vietnam that left THOUSANDS of Vietnamese dead and divided the country in half. A student from Egypt might be fleeing the civil unrest that has created war in his nation. ALL OF THESE GROUPS ARE EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE HAD OPPRESSION. NONE OF THEM QUALIFY FOR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION. YES, African Americans were slaves in this country. It was horrible. But many other ethnic and cultural groups have faced oppresion in history as well. MANY ARE NOT INCLUDED THOUGH.

That is why I believe that an essay can reveal these types of things. If a student is poor, regardless of their race, and does well in high school, BRAVO. They are deserving. I would not be happy if I got in just because I looked a certain way. It seems ironic that Will Smith, worth MILLIONS of dollars, could have his children used as part of the "quota" at an affirmative action school and they would fulfill it simply because of their appearance.
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Old 07-13-2011, 02:52 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,394,077 times
Reputation: 29064
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC2462 View Post
Ah, put a sock in it. You're 20 something years old. The playing field was a lot more level in the 80's, but you keep shifting the goalposts.
He can't. Born a victim and will assume room temperature in the same mode.

This thread needs to be closed. It's outlived any possible usefulness or reasonable discussion.
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Old 07-13-2011, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Here&There
2,209 posts, read 3,609,365 times
Reputation: 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
To highlight a particular group ...
African American kids due to some 400 years of slavery have had their culture/identity erased. Up until the 1960's they weren't seen as equals and their parents were disadvantaged due to not having equal rights. My parents were alive during this time....
What's your point?

Quote:
Generations past weren't given land, reparations.. Programs weren't designed to systematically give back the culture/identity that was systematically destroyed over 400 years.
What culture/identity from over 400 years ago? If you're talking about the cultures from Africa, you can always go back and reclaim it, if that was what your point is.

Quote:
There was no payment for the generations that endured unequal treatment or opportunity.. And thus a program like Affirmative action comes along to try to right some of the wrongs (Pennies on the dollar) :

Affirmative action is an attempt to promote equal opportunity. It is often instituted in government and educational settings to ensure that minority groups within a society are included in all programs. The justification for affirmative action is to compensate for past discrimination, persecution or exploitation by the ruling class of a culture,[3] and to address existing discrimination.[4] The implementation of affirmative action, especially in the United States, is justified by disparate impact.
So where are the facts that it has been beneficial? Let's look at one of your "citation" earlier, wikipedia:

Quote:
Mismatching is the term given to the negative effect that affirmative action has when it places a student into a college that is too difficult for him or her. For example, according to the theory, in the absence of affirmative action, a student will be admitted to a college that matches his or her academic ability and have a good chance of graduating. However, according to the mismatching theory, affirmative action often places a student into a college that is too difficult, and this increases the student's chance of dropping out. Thus, according to the theory, affirmative action hurts its intended beneficiaries, because it increases their dropout rate.[55] [56]
Evidence in support of the mismatching theory was presented by Gail Heriot, a professor of law at the University of San Diego and a member of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, in an August 24, 2007 article published in the Wall St. Journal. The article reported on a 2004 study that was conducted by UCLA law professor Richard Sander and published in the Stanford Law Review. The study concluded that there were 7.9% fewer black attorneys than there would have been if there was no affirmative action. The study was titled, "A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools." [57]

Quote:
and you want to rant about opportunity?

Qualification = A
Asian kid's qualifications are : A+1
African American kid's qualifications are : A

Both are qualified.. Maybe just maybe AA is preferences the African american kid w/ just enough weighting to get him in over the Asian kid...
How is this fact? This is just your own assessment, your opinion.

Quote:
Question : Was your culture/identity systemically destroyed? No .. Which is one of the reasons Asian people succeed over others .. Because of their strong knowledge of self/history/culture...
Is this one of your opinions again? Cite how this is true.

Quote:
Question : Were your people enslaved for over 400 years in America in the quantities that African Americans were (w/o compensation)in order to build the modern day America you now have immigrated to and are taking advantage of w/ you strong cultural identity? No
What's your point? That African Americans need the educational standards lowered? Or are you simply going off that assessment of yours that has no factual basis behind it?

Quote:
Question : Did Asian people march down roads? Get arrested ? Get lynched? Get hosed down .. Get debased in order to obtain Civil Rights and freedom for all races/colors/creeds in the 1960s? No
Seems like you're holding onto a lot history here, is this the culture you identify with? It's no wonder you want compensation even if it's at the expense of discriminating others.

Quote:
So when a little program comes along (cost : pennies on the dollar) and tries to right some of the HUGE wrongs in this country's history .. A program that has been in existence for little over a generation .. Don't come posting some sorry link to the achievement of a group of people taking full advantage of the opportunities NOW available.
You didn't even bother reading it, I bet. What you've been saying, nothing in refutation of the study, is that discrimination is okay.

Quote:
Things are the way they are for a reason. If you're not ignorant, when you come across a disparity, you will try to figure out why it exists.. In the quest for answers you will find information and obtain understanding. Leaders of this country, given the 400-500 years of disadvantages and hell served to a group of people, clearly understand they need programs to help rebuild what they destroyed......

You go into a country and bomb it to the ground .. You have the duty to rebuild it.. As citizens of this country, you pay for it ... When a country has bombed a people to the ground for over 400-500 years and profited from it .. you have a duty and responsibility to build it up.. Yeah, you didn't do it .. but this country did and as a citizen of it .. you pay.

Let me know which part of this you aren't following...
In bold, you sure do think highly of yourself to be able to credit your own assessment.

And you seem to void what my prior point was, that is, you think that lowering educational standards is okay? You think that African Americans will turn out better with lowered expectations? How do you suppose that will, in your eyes, create equality?
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:04 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,882,178 times
Reputation: 1217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
He can't. Born a victim and will assume room temperature in the same mode.

This thread needs to be closed. It's outlived any possible usefulness or reasonable discussion.
Born a victim. Made a success. I've got no complaints.
I am providing a recount and correlation of historical record...
Anyone can do this who has a brain cell left in their head. Purple, white, black, yellow, orange..Doesn't matter who recounts it. History is history. Its impacts.. are its impacts.

The fact that it resorts to people name calling and acting a fool only serves to further the points presented. Closet racists and historical deniers.
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:24 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,882,178 times
Reputation: 1217
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVitamin View Post
What's your point?
Use your brain. What's yours?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BVitamin View Post
What culture/identity from over 400 years ago? If you're talking about the cultures from Africa, you can always go back and reclaim it, if that was what your point is.
*Ignorant*

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVitamin View Post
So where are the facts that it has been beneficial? Let's look at one of your "citation" earlier, wikipedia:

Mismatching is the term given to the negative effect that affirmative action has when it places a student into a college that is too difficult for him or her. For example, according to the theory, in the absence of affirmative action, a student will be admitted to a college that matches his or her academic ability and have a good chance of graduating. However, according to the mismatching theory, affirmative action often places a student into a college that is too difficult, and this increases the student's chance of dropping out. Thus, according to the theory, affirmative action hurts its intended beneficiaries, because it increases their dropout rate.[55] [56]
Evidence in support of the mismatching theory was presented by Gail Heriot, a professor of law at the University of San Diego and a member of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, in an August 24, 2007 article published in the Wall St. Journal. The article reported on a 2004 study that was conducted by UCLA law professor Richard Sander and published in the Stanford Law Review. The study concluded that there were 7.9% fewer black attorneys than there would have been if there was no affirmative action. The study was titled, "A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools." [57]
Keyword : Theory .. Narrow Focus : Law school

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVitamin View Post
How is this fact? This is just your own assessment, your opinion.
Where are your facts that unqualified students are getting in by and large via AA? I presented a situation to demonstrate what 'qualified' means because you obviously don't understand the word... A situation demonstration of the word 'qualified' is opinion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVitamin View Post
Is this one of your opinions again? Cite how this is true.
What's your explanation ? Genes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVitamin View Post
What's your point? That African Americans need the educational standards lowered? Or are you simply going off that assessment of yours that has no factual basis behind it?
My point was obvious.. You destroy something and profit from it .. Once its acknowledged what you did.. You pay to rebuild it... Unless you have no moral fiber in your body...


Quote:
Originally Posted by BVitamin View Post
Seems like you're holding onto a lot history here, is this the culture you identify with? It's no wonder you want compensation even if it's at the expense of discriminating others.
I have a good idea, how about, we go through history . Find out what contributions were made to this country via slavery that weren't equally compensated back.. adjust for inflation... Destroy that equal amount and then have people of non slave ancestry build it back. I can be just as ignorant as you. You live in the country you live in and it was at the expense of others.. Unless of course you forgot that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BVitamin View Post
You didn't even bother reading it, I bet. What you've been saying, nothing in refutation of the study, is that discrimination is okay.
You probably need some AA to send you back to school as you obviously can't read :

The justification for affirmative action is to compensate for past discrimination, persecution or exploitation by the ruling class of a culture.

What part of this is not o.k? Its the righting of past deeds .... I again repeat, you are an American citizen. In America, past deeds were done. America profited immensely and is now paying it back (pennies on the dollar). The other alternative is to calculate all that was not compensated for and destroy an equal amount of it (present day) and let those not of that ancestry build it back.. In order to quelch the of all the babies on here. I'd be in favor of the later.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BVitamin View Post
And you seem to void what my prior point was, that is, you think that lowering educational standards is okay? You think that African Americans will turn out better with lowered expectations? How do you suppose that will, in your eyes, create equality?
Your point was no point because you have no data to back it. A qualification standard of A is a qualification standard of A ..
A+1
A+2
A+3
Are all qualified. Aptitude is aptitude .. Having 'A' ensures you have the aptitude. If you worked in admissions/education/read studies, you wouldn't be making such an ignorant comment. African Americans will turn out better when given the same opportunities as others to achieve. AA ensures along the way that qualified individuals are given those opportunities. The studies/data demonstrate it works.

Countries all across the world have modern day programs for past wrong deeds done against various people. In germany they paid out billions of dollars to jews in reparations for what they did. Enacted programs to right their wrongs...

You obviously are of some different mindset.. Screw people over for 100s of years and when it gets inconvenient, tell them : sorry .. get over it .. move on

So, it does create for a more balanced/equal society... Stop espousing your uninformed views and go use google for a chance and you'll discover the immense amount of data/studies that prove it. It is after-all the reason for the continuance of the program much to the cries of the ignorant/uninformed cry babies.

In any case, I'm done w/ this sorry thread..
If you can spare a minute of your time, go and watch :
http://www.hulu.com/watch/93209/500-years-later

I wont be surprised if you don't.
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:34 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,394,077 times
Reputation: 29064
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
Closet racists and historical deniers.
Clearly you received your history lessons from Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton.
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:35 PM
 
452 posts, read 1,237,033 times
Reputation: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
I have a good idea, how about, we go through history . Find out what contributions were made to this country via slavery that weren't equally compensated back.. adjust for inflation... Destroy that equal amount and then have people of non slave ancestry build it back. I can be just as ignorant as you. You live in the country you live in and it was at the expense of others.. Unless of course you forgot that.
Given this is California and the law is a local law for California, none of our infastructure in California was built on the back of slaves or really any African Americans. California was not a slave state. It did not have a large African American population oppressed or forced to build its infastructure.

That would be the Chinese pressured to build Rail Roads in California for miniscule salaries. They were beaten, over worked, paid little, and many died. They were seen as easily replaceable.

HISTORY OF THE CHINESE IN CALIFORNIA

The Chinese Exclusion Act was in direct response to the Chinese immigrants in California:
Chinese Exclusion Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

110,000 Japanese were removed from their homes in California and forced to go to internment camps for up to four years. Their lives had to start new with little to nothing to help them.
Japanese-American internment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vietnamese in California communities like Long Beach, Garden Grove, Westminster, etc... had over 2,000,000 people in their nation killed by the Vietnam War. The refugees came to America with nothing and had to start life over (and were not necessarily well received, many are poor today).
Vietnamese American - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^^^These groups get nothing for affirmative action and likely have a worse history of oppression WITHIN California.

And probably the biggest group that could be considered oppressed historically in a state like California would be Mexicans, many of which were temporary farm help and then put on a bus back to Mexico. They certainly were not paid well or treated equally.

Last edited by coo77; 07-13-2011 at 03:44 PM..
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:48 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,882,178 times
Reputation: 1217
Quote:
Originally Posted by coo77 View Post
Given this is California and the law is a local law for California, none of our infastructure in California was built on the back of slaves or really any African Americans. California was not a slave state. It did not have a large African American population oppressed or forced to build its infastructure.

That would be the Chinese pressured to build Rail Roads in California for miniscule salaries. They were beaten, over worked, paid little, and many died. They were seen as easily replaceable.

HISTORY OF THE CHINESE IN CALIFORNIA

The Chinese Exclusion Act was in direct response to the Chinese immigrants in California:
Chinese Exclusion Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

110,000 Japanese were removed from their homes in California and forced to go to internment camps for up to four years. Their lives had to start new with little to nothing to help them.
Japanese-American internment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vietnamese in California communities like Long Beach, Garden Grove, Westminster, etc... had over 2,000,000 people in their nation killed by the Vietnam War. The refugees came to America with nothing and had to start life over (and were not necessarily well received, many are poor today).
Vietnamese American - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am aware of this history and I think its shameful. My inquiry is, how do you think this compares to the size/scope/length in which African Americans endured much worse? Because some states were free and others weren't, do you not suggest that California and other free states didn't benefit from slavery? Do you suggest that California is its own country and thus is exempt from America attempting to right its past wrongs? Did these individuals march on Washington? Get lynched? Hosed down? and keep fighting for laws/some form of compensation ?

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/immigration1.html
The historical record is that they came to America as free peopleYo to a free portion of America .. Took part in a great economic opportunity at the time.. When through some short term hardships through the above stated conditions .. Did not have their culture systematically wiped out .. Weren't mass-enslaved... Had wealth, land, culture, and many other things to pass on for generations....

The outcome ... Well ... does it not speak for itself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coo77 View Post
^^^These groups get nothing for affirmative action and likely have a worse history of oppression WITHIN California.
You don't get what you don't fight for and given I again I point to the scale/size/severity/length suffered vs. African Americans throughout U.S history.
In 1849, the first Chinese merchants’ association was formed, but it did not last long. In less than a few years it petered out as its role was gradually replaced by a network of Chinese district and clan associations when more immigrants came in greater numbers

Meanwhile African Americans were still slaves....
Quote:
Originally Posted by coo77 View Post
And probably the biggest group that could be considered oppressed historically in a state like California would be Mexicans, many of which were temporary farm help and then put on a bus back to Mexico. They certainly were not paid well or treated equally.
And look where their achievement is at in this state.. Still mostly working farms/low end jobs....

Last edited by yeahthatguy; 07-13-2011 at 04:16 PM..
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Old 07-13-2011, 04:15 PM
 
452 posts, read 1,237,033 times
Reputation: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
I am aware of this history and I think its shameful. My inquiry is, how do you think this compares to the size/scope/length in which African Americans endured much worse? Because some states were free and others weren't, do you not suggest that California and other free states didn't benefit from slavery? Do you suggest that California is its own country and thus is exempt from America attempting to right its past wrongs? Did these individuals march on Washington? Get lynched? Hosed down? and keep fighting for laws/some form of compensation ?
In the memory of people from my culture is not the memory of African American activists marching on Washington, but rather marching on Asian American owned businesses throughout the Los Angeles area during the 1992 Los Angeles riots. We had nothing to do with what happened and most of us agreed that Rodney King did not deserve that, but when African Americans rioted and burned down businesses in areas like Koreatown and Chinatown, Asian Americans in Los Angeles had an injustice. I remember the fear being with my family, trying to protect our dry cleaning business from flames in downtown San Pedro. Gunfire went through the windows of our shop and the windows were shattered. The neighboring business caught on fire and ours was partially damaged. There was new fear that for some reason we were targets of African Americans. We were not refunded or reimbursed from the financial sufferings in our neighborhoods that were burned or ruined by African Americans.

It is interesting how different people have different perspectives. You were hurt by white people, I was hurt by African Americans. The chain of injustice goes on. Only one person on the jury was Asian, we did not beat Rodney King, yet our businesses were targeted, destroyed, and burned more than any other. I will never understand why. What did we do to you?
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