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Old 09-22-2011, 04:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mayorhaggar View Post
Meanwhile the Bush tax cuts have created billions of jobs in the last 10 years.
/thread gtfo yeahthatguy
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Majin View Post
/thread gtfo yeahthatguy
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:44 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 8,798,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post

Those who say money doesn't matter either never had any or have so much that it doesn't simply matter..

... Money is evil ...
No: obsession with money is a destructive neurosis, Sigmund ...

I was raised in comfort, but without excess ... and the comfort we had was a result of disciplined management well applied by a dirt-poor immigrant family history. My parents worked as children on farms and in rich peoples' homes ... yet they also excelled scholastically and moved into social service careers that paid adequately. I, personally, never earned much in spite of my ability to do well financially (and how do I know my capabilities to earn were greater? ... because when need occurred at certain times, I seized opportunities and cleared the decks -- aggressively) ... yet, over time I built a solid net worth -- without ever once resorting to investing in financial products such as stocks, bonds, risk ventures, currency trading, gold-leveraging, or any other such financial instruments -- as I consider all such to be baseless fraud. I did build, with my own two hands, properties that I rent at very reasonable prices.

I don't need much -- so I don't take much ... and what I do take is never at an unfair advantage to others nor based on speculation not backed by actual labor and productivity of life's essentials.
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Old 09-22-2011, 05:04 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,887,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
No: obsession with money is a destructive neurosis, Sigmund ...

I was raised in comfort, but without excess ... and the comfort we had was a result of disciplined management well applied by a dirt-poor immigrant family history. My parents worked as children on farms and in rich peoples' homes ... yet they also excelled scholastically and moved into social service careers that paid adequately. I, personally, never earned much in spite of my ability to do well financially (and how do I know my capabilities to earn were greater? ... because when need occurred at certain times, I seized opportunities and cleared the decks -- aggressively) ... yet, over time I built a solid net worth -- without ever once resorting to investing in financial products such as stocks, bonds, risk ventures, currency trading, gold-leveraging, or any other such financial instruments -- as I consider all such to be baseless fraud. I did build, with my own two hands, properties that I rent at very reasonable prices.

I don't need much -- so I don't take much ... and what I do take is never at an unfair advantage to others nor based on speculation not backed by actual labor and productivity of life's essentials.
Holy than thou' much? ... As a slumlord, I would think the least of your commentary would be directed towards investors who can be poor/middle class/rich. I again need to point out to you that the whole world revolves around the principal of investing/capitalism yet you declare yourself somehow as a non-participant .. As a slumlord, you aren't a part of that class? You engage in no great effort on a daily basis to make an income stream that is extracted from someone else's hard work... I've seen it all ...

I come from humble means as well.. So, again you're preaching to the choir ..
Investing capital/labor in properties and speculating on occupancy and returns is 'investing/speculating' my friend. As much as you'd like to think its different it's not....

The hypocrisy is stunning. You simply don't understand many things related to equity/forex/options/bonds/etc so you call it 'evil'... I finally get your position !

Funny, I come from humble means.. I have labored.. I have excelled academically.. I find nothing more pleasurable than learning and do even to this day (my latest topic is pursuit is quantum physics.. <3 stanford's open lecture site) .. I work at a full time job applying my intelligence to make the very internet you are communicating across right now function.. I use the proceeds to 'invest' and back company's that change the world and employ people and get a good return as a result. I use it also to hedge my future against a silly govt. that no one seems to want to fix ... Have a beautiful relationship w/ someone I love. Have great friends I enjoy .. And for all these things, I suffer from obsession w/ money and I (and people like me are evil) ..

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Old 09-22-2011, 05:24 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 8,798,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
Holy than thou' much? ... As a slumlord, I would think the least of your commentary would be directed towards investors who can be poor/middle class/rich. I again need to point out to you that the whole world revolves around the principal of investing/capitalism yet you declare yourself somehow as a non-participant .. As a slumlord, you aren't a part of that class? I've seen it all ...

I come from humble means as well.. So, again you're preaching to the choir ..
Investing capital/labor in properties and speculating on occupancy and returns is 'investing/speculating' my friend. As much as you'd like to think its different it's not....

The hypocrisy is stunning. You simply don't understand many things related to equity/forex/options/bonds/etc so you call it 'evil'... I finally get your position !
No, no, and no, Sigmund ... the properties were my family homes, originally, which I then converted to multiple units ... and hardly rented as slum dwellings ... so not a bottom up investment venture ... merely a minimal labor conversion to income (which, btw, I use to help support others, including disabled/disadvantaged, not myself, as I have a modest, but sufficient for my needs, military compensation) ... and definitely providing needed shelter in markets short on supply. You need to refresh your definition of "slumlord".

Yes, the world does revolve around investing / capitalism -- sadly, and unnecessarily. And my point is perfectly clear: money is not evil: obsession with money is. I get by. While most folks obsess and eat each other for position based on vapor. All contemporary economies are fiat. It is a reality ... and I must survive by living within that reality while not feeding its frenzied inertia toward self-destruction. There is NO place to go with consumption-based economies in the long run.

The investment of my sweat in my family's home, and later conversion to rental does not begin to rise to the kind of fiat investing of "equity/forex/options/bonds/etc" ... which you know perfectly well.
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Old 09-22-2011, 05:48 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,887,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
No, no, and no, Sigmund ... the properties were my family homes, originally, which I then converted to multiple units ... and hardly rented as slum dwellings ... so not a bottom up investment venture ...
So, you're a trust fund baby? .. I'm sorry for the remarks.. just applying your logic and commentary at to you..


Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
merely a minimal labor conversion to income (which, btw, I use to help support others, including disabled/disadvantaged, not myself, as I have a modest, but sufficient for my needs, military compensation) ... and definitely providing needed shelter in markets short on supply. You need to refresh your definition of "slumlord".
Yeah, i help the world too .. Surely you don't think people engage in business ventures/scale their business from the fumes in the air.. and like you .. the sums of such investments, given the risk, are paltry ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Yes, the world does revolve around investing / capitalism -- sadly, and unnecessarily. And my point is perfectly clear: money is not evil: obsession with money is. I get by. While most folks obsess and eat each other for position based on vapor. All contemporary economies are fiat. It is a reality ... and I must survive by living within that reality while not feeding its frenzied inertia toward self-destruction. There is NO place to go with consumption-based economies in the long run.
K, you're of a certain camp I understand it .. There is no helping or changing you're mindset...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
The investment of my sweat in my family's home, and later conversion to rental does not begin to rise to the kind of fiat investing of "equity/forex/options/bonds/etc" ... which you know perfectly well.
The world is run on fiat. You get paid in fiat. your renters pay you in fiat. You have equity in your house.. others have equity in a corporation/what have you. Fiat is helped and kept stable and balanced via free floating forex markets ...

Options help stabilize and control volatility/speculation.
Bonds are what are allowing your home state to continue to operate .. as well as your government/corporations/and other governments around the world .. and so on and so forth ..

You're right, your trust fund handed down asset which you put minimal labor into and extract a great deal of revenue from does not begin to rise to the kind of global market based investing/trading that has allowed for wide spread prosperity many times over. What you receive via rent payments though is a direct product of the grand success of these markets.

Hundreds of millions of people rose out of poverty around the world over the past couple of decades due to the evil fiat market machine ... A lot of people are just but hurt because its not them who did ... and not their country to some degree....

You judge w/ a biased and lopsided view. You are as much a part of the system as anyone else.. Fiat and the leveraging/expansion capabilities of it are what allow for greater leaps in growth and innovation in our society.

The concentration of capital is what allows for faster execution on ideals. Surely, you don't assume if one needed $40 million for a venture that it would be easier to ask $1 from 40 million people who haven't a clue about anything beyond their day to day to invest vs. 4 people w/ $10 million in capital lying around who get the venture/business idea.

You are stuck in an old school view of the world. You dam the modern economic practices yet fail to acknowledge the many great products of it. You call others evil for their participation in the system 'just to get by' but fail to acknowledge how you are no different... and For that, you cannot be helped.

On a consumption basis, invested capital makes money on scaled profit margins .. volume*profit margin = big profit .. This economy of scale is what has brought things once only available to the rich like the affordable flat screen tvs that people have in their homes, cellphones, cars... airline travel to people of average means.. This economy of scale is achieved via intensive capital investment.. fiat systems and capitalism .. W/ one hand you dam this system, but w/ the other fail to see that, in its absence, the gap between the rich/poor in terms of these comforts would be wider...

Equity markets opened up to the average man the ability to participate in this great system of capital .. Yet, how many people participate in it?
I don't consume much and use my capital instead to invest .. Others consume and the profit is sent my way... Do people have to consume like crazy ? No...

The realization is that if you want to make money to buy yourself time/freedom.. you spend less.. invest more.. Alot of people don't want this and thus are consumer slaves.. they make this choice all on their own .. and since we live in a free country, if that makes them happy, they can choose that lifestyle. When others choose freedom/time... don't vilify them.. it's a choice... one that makes me happy

I sleep great at night and have a wonderful fulfilling life. Materialistic things/possessions don't mark my worth .. My intelligence does .. and growing it is my highest priority. Money has a purpose in my life... and it is namely to buy me freedom/time to pursue whatever it is i wish to do with my capabilities.

Last edited by yeahthatguy; 09-22-2011 at 05:59 PM..
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Old 09-22-2011, 06:31 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 8,798,680 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
So, you're a trust fund baby? .. I'm sorry for the remarks.. just applying your logic and commentary at to you..
I have to chuckle -- not so much at you, but at your misunderstanding here -- No, I am not a "trust fund baby" ... I built my homes, myself, from the bottom up, as a young man, for MY family ... you know, for my wife and kids, and then converted them when I was older and the kids grew up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
K, you're of a certain camp I understand it .. There is no helping or changing you're mindset...
Correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
The world is run on fiat. You get paid in fiat. your renters pay you in fiat. You have equity in your house.. others have equity in a corporation/what have you. Fiat is helped and kept stable and balanced via free floating forex markets ...
Correct. It is a system of vaporous illusion. But it works -- sorta kinda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
Options help stabilize and control volatility/speculation.
Bonds are what are allowing your home state to continue to operate .. as well as your government/corporations/and other governments around the world .. and so on and so forth ..
Correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
You're right, your trust fund handed down asset which you put minimal labor into and extract a great deal of revenue from does not begin to rise to the kind of global market based investing/trading that has allowed for wide spread prosperity many times over. What you receive via rent payments though is a direct product of the grand success of these markets.
Nope. No trust fund. Plenty of personal labor. And if we were all still hunters and gatherers, I'd have no need of collecting rents. Yes, I am that primitively minded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
Hundreds of millions of people rose out of poverty around the world over the past couple of decades due to the evil fiat market machine ... A lot of people are just but hurt because its not them who did ... and not their country to some degree....
Define "poverty" ... I consider our culture impoverished by virtue of its lack of soul.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
You judge w/ a biased and lopsided view. You are as much a part of the system as anyone else.. Fiat and the leveraging/expansion capabilities of it are what allow for greater leaps in growth and innovation in our society.
I do judge with a biased view. And I am a part of the system -- sorta -- and unwillingly. Correct. I have virtually no option to escape it other than the extent to which I live a highly simplistic and spartan life.

I do not value what you refer to as "growth" and "innovation" ... I see most everything we do in our culture as ultimately deceptive, destructive, distraction from essential truths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
You are stuck in an old school view of the world. You dam the modern economic practices yet fail to acknowledge the many great products of it. You call others evil for their participation in the system 'just to get by' but fail to acknowledge how you are no different... and For that, you cannot be helped.
You have no idea just how old my view of the world is ... some have referred to me as frankly neanderthal ... I never argue with this. I am different. And I recognize that my views will not prevail. I am a dinosaur. A 4,000 year-old Taoist at best. I cannot be helped by your, or any modern point of view. I would not consider anything you offer as "help" to be truly helpful in an infinite view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
On a consumption basis, invested capital makes money on scaled profit margins .. volume*profit margin = big profit .. This economy of scale is what has brought things once only available to the rich like the affordable flat screen tvs that people have in their homes, cellphones, cars... airline travel to people of average means.. This economy of scale is achieved via intensive capital investment.. fiat systems and capitalism .. W/ one hand you dam this system, but w/ the other fail to see that, in its absence, the gap between the rich/poor in terms of these comforts would be wider...
In hunter-gatherer life, there are no rich and poor. Tribal life is generally nearly egalitarian by essence and necessity.

I could go on ... but I'll give you and everyone a break ... bottom line: yep, I'm a different sort altogether ... not political (however much Don9 accuses me), don't share many social, cultural, or economic goals with the rest of you either
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Old 09-22-2011, 07:04 PM
 
2,311 posts, read 2,887,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
I have to chuckle -- not so much at you, but at your misunderstanding here -- No, I am not a "trust fund baby" ... I built my homes, myself, from the bottom up, as a young man, for MY family ... you know, for my wife and kids, and then converted them when I was older and the kids grew up.
Correct.
Correct. It is a system of vaporous illusion. But it works -- sorta kinda.
Correct.
Nope. No trust fund. Plenty of personal labor. And if we were all still hunters and gatherers, I'd have no need of collecting rents. Yes, I am that primitively minded.

Define "poverty" ... I consider our culture impoverished by virtue of its lack of soul.

I do judge with a biased view. And I am a part of the system -- sorta -- and unwillingly. Correct. I have virtually no option to escape it other than the extent to which I live a highly simplistic and spartan life.

I do not value what you refer to as "growth" and "innovation" ... I see most everything we do in our culture as ultimately deceptive, destructive, distraction from essential truths.
You have no idea just how old my view of the world is ... some have referred to me as frankly neanderthal ... I never argue with this. I am different. And I recognize that my views will not prevail. I am a dinosaur. A 4,000 year-old Taoist at best. I cannot be helped by your, or any modern point of view. I would not consider anything you offer as "help" to be truly helpful in an infinite view.

In hunter-gatherer life, there are no rich and poor. Tribal life is generally nearly egalitarian by essence and necessity.

I could go on ... but I'll give you and everyone a break ... bottom line: yep, I'm a different sort altogether ... not political (however much Don9 accuses me), don't share many social, cultural, or economic goals with the rest of you either
K, thank you for providing personal details to allow me to understand your perspective ! I agree with several points in your response .. Namely :

" I consider our culture impoverished by virtue of its lack of soul."
"I see most everything we do in our culture as ultimately deceptive,destructive, distraction from essential truths."

I retract my 'trust fund' remarks and will participate w/ you in reducing the name calling.

I also respect your differing view of things.. I am just hoping to shine some light on things which you feel are 'wrong' .. they are always good/bad parts. Thank you for being honest in letting me know that I can't change your mind. I can respect someone who has a differing opinion and the grounds for which they differ ... Just want to make sure they are 'grounds'.

*Cheers mate
B.T.W - I have been told since I was 13 that I have an old soul.. Namely because I don't buy into mainstream media and was always hunting for something deeper in life... guess we are alike in some ways.

I think we both get that this is a pretty screwed up system. After graduating college, I saw it immediately upon getting my first paycheck .. Looking at hoe prices.. college debt and all that jazz..

I raged for years about the flaws and unfairness in the world.. You will probably find early posts from me in 2007 where I felt alot of things I feel are needed now (after learning more) were the seeds of destruction. I tried to get others to join me in making a change and found most people unwilling/uncaring.. So i stopped trying to change the world for people who don't care and focused more on changing its impacts on my personal life. Like you, I live under humble means.. I just understand that money is powerful and can translate into many things (if used properly) .. I can translate into time. It can translate into being able to observe beauty around the world. Different people around the world.. A meal for a starving village 1/2 way around the world.. Political change / etc .. And while i focus a good deal of my time on it, understand this is not a pace i will keep for the rest of my life.. Nor my life's focus.

I live on modest means. Thus, gains now will last me for years of peace and quiet ! I value mostly things of substance, intelligence... people.. experiences.. I have just found, I can't change the world .. and it is futile to try.. So, a part of what i do on a daily basis is to ensure I have enough $$$ to ensure it doesn't change me, my life, or that of my loved ones.. It doesn't prevent 'us' from being happy/free... from being slaves to society.. from enjoying the beauty of the world...

That's all it is Null .. A means to an end
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:07 PM
 
187 posts, read 322,719 times
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Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
I find nothing more pleasurable than learning and do even to this day (my latest topic is pursuit is quantum physics.. <3 stanford's open lecture site) ..
Way off topic, but I can't resist. Amidst all this political/economic argumentation, here is a statement that is refreshing and which everyone should be able to wholeheartedly agree with. It expresses something which I believe is a fundamental directive of life: NEVER stop learning.

Even as you get older and perhaps more intellectually feeble, there are things that can be learned (my dearly departed mother in her 80's did a challenging crossword puzzle every day). I very much admire and respect you for having this attitude.

I recently retired from a 40 year academic career, teaching mathematics and computer science at the college and graduate levels. One of my avocations is Physics, which IMO gets at the heart of how the universe works.

I once got in a friendly argument with my Dean (and boss) who was a humanities person (whom I greatly respected). I told her "If you want to get close to God, study Physics." She argued that Music, Art, and Literature were the paths to the divine. Of course, all human intellectual endeavor somehow reflects the Consciousness that created the Universe (my students once anonymously posted a sign on my office door with the words "Philosophical Fountain", which I took as the ultimate accolade).

Anyway, one of my retirement projects is to slog my way through a text on Quantum Physics. It's very stimulating and much fun (though sometimes frustrating because the math ain't easy). Our mutual interest in this topic makes us kindred souls (absolutely regardless of our political views) and I wish you much luck in this intellectual pursuit.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to say this.
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:17 PM
 
5,113 posts, read 4,952,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
The 'Buffett Rule' hasn't worked in California - latimes.com


Recession fears grip global stocks
Dow dives more than 500 as traders flee market
Dow falls more than 500 points - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fiw-markets-20110922,0,6254504.story - broken link)

Nothing like that sweet smell of billions in state tax revenue being evaporated in the morning ...
Good articles ... and from the very left leaning LA times no less
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