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Yes and as noted by someone else in this thread, everyone can't be at a "higher level".
Yeah, no kidding, especially American CITIZENS who would like to get a quality education but are being squeezed out by illegal non-citizens who have no right to be there. Like I said let Mexico take care of Mexicans. America should take care of Americans not Mexicans.
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Originally Posted by user_id
Yes and as noted by someone else in this thread,
Also, it should go without say, but not everyone is good at math-based subjects and that leaves a lot of folks, in today's world, at a huge disadvantage. Increasingly, we have an economy based on a genetic lottery.
I don't believe that should be a concern / expense of Californian tax payers - leave the illegals at the mercy of Mexican humanitarianism, until they have a much-needed revolution and kill off all the druglords, then see what's left over.
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Originally Posted by user_id
Umm...Mexico has colleges, it has automated factories, etc. Mexico has a political problem, one that isn't easily solved.
Send Jerry Brown down there to fix it then. Obviously he wants to make Mexico his home.
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Originally Posted by user_id
Negra Modelo is rather drinkable....
So is Corona if you are a migrant worker slaving away in a hot field all day picking vegetables for cents on the dollar. But that's not how Californians ought to roll. Nor should Californians be 'dependent' upon this slave labor. It's a perverted toxic relationship.
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 9,679,297 times
Reputation: 2622
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So is Corona if you are a migrant worker slaving away in a hot field all day picking vegetables for cents on the dollar. But that's not how Californians ought to roll. Nor should Californians be 'dependent' upon this slave labor. It's a perverted toxic relationship.
Your whole post was nuts, but I will just address this nonsense. Wages in the field are about the same as paramedics, and Federal Wildland Firefighters, and can exceed $25 an hour on piece work.. Please educate yourself.
Yeah, no kidding, especially American CITIZENS who would like to get a quality education but are being squeezed out by illegal non-citizens who have no right to be there.
Except of course that the "illegal non-citizens" are just as part of the economy as a citizen. But Americans don't have problems with a lack of educational opportunity....
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Originally Posted by scottfreez
I don't believe that should be a concern / expense of Californian tax payers
My comment there had nothing to do with immigration....
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Originally Posted by scottfreez
So is Corona if you are a migrant worker slaving away in a hot field all day picking vegetables for cents on the dollar.
No, Negra Modelo is just good. Try it some time. I also to break it to you, but Corona is probably more popular with whites in California than Mexicans....
Regardless, the majority of Californians aren't hostile against Mexicans like you are. I'd suggest you keep the ethnic hatred where it belongs, namely Europe.
Your whole post was nuts, but I will just address this nonsense. Wages in the field are about the same as paramedics, and Federal Wildland Firefighters, and can exceed $25 an hour on piece work.. Please educate yourself.
Nah you must be nuts if you expect me to believe that nonsense
"TOCKTON, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour."
"Teresa Vega makes about $65 a day during the strawberry season, as does her husband. But they now have two daughters living with them, Luisa, four, and Maritza, two. So Ms Vega must, perversely, hire a babysitter while she is working. That costs $50 a day."
"Because the pickers were squatting or kneeling under the vines and twisting to reach up for the grapes (the low-hanging fruit proving the trickiest), their necks and shoulders were soon in agony.
vs.
Standing up to relieve their backs thrust their heads into the vines, which are covered in pesticides. There are many cases of birth defects and cancer in the families of farmworkers. But as the heat climbed above 100°F (about 40°C), the vines, soaked in toxins or not, became allies. The air underneath them is stagnant, as in a sauna, but their foliage is the only available shade."
<- and namely because their labor is not mechanized and the farm owners don't go out of their way to create humane conditions and their is no union because the workers are illegal ... They very much get treated like slaves
Just as the heat threatened to overwhelm this correspondent, the woman in the group broke into a slow Mexican song, which somehow helped. But heatstroke is common in the fields. In 2008 Maria Isavel Vasquez Jiminez, a 17-year-old Mexican girl who was pregnant, collapsed while picking grapes and died two days later."
Regardless, the majority of Californians aren't hostile against Mexicans like you are. I'd suggest you keep the ethnic hatred where it belongs, namely Europe.
Elementary Watson. If that's true, I wonder why it could be? Any idea?
Figures you would insinuate that I have an ethnic hatred of Mexicans. I won't take it as an insult but rather an indication of your lack of talking points as well as taste in beer.
To clarify sth for you: I am an advocate of Americans getting the benefit of American tax dollars and American education systems FIRST, irregardless of their ethnic background. If there needs to be room made for more Mexicans, or whomever, then I'd rather see the laws changed and enforced to accommodate that.
How about enforcing limits, and requiring certain level of educational attainment before permitting immigration? America's one of the greatest countries in the world - why not let them earn the right to live here? Most first-tier European countries have such requirements, including language proficiency and skills to help insure you won't be DOA and a burden to the state when you cross the border. I presented a 15-page business plan in two languages and a stack of paperwork in order to get a visa in Europe, I worked hard to earn that, why shouldn't the Mexicans be required to do the same? America has ENOUGH illiterates and poverty-stricken people to worry about as it is. Why should we dilute ourselves even further to support a 3rd world country as well? Is that your vision for California?
Finally I won't say anything about your ethnic shallowness, except the fact, obvious to everyone but you, that illegal immigrants are put to backbreaking work like oxen. Oh, that's perfectly acceptable to you, our resident humanitarian, but I'm "full of ethnic hatred". Aim high, dude...
Last edited by scottfreez; 10-13-2011 at 08:38 AM..
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 9,679,297 times
Reputation: 2622
Scott, you don't have to accept my figured, you can do your own research.. many people do.
Field work is hard, but not as hard as cutting a fireline. Fieldworkers get to go home after dark, too.
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often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour."
Federal Wildland Firefighters start at GS 3, $9.72 per hour.
I worked many a 24 to 40 to 60 hour shift. That is shift, not week. That is why they call them Hotshot shifts.
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<- and namely because their labor is not mechanized and the farm owners don't go out of their way to create humane conditions and their is no union because the workers are illegal ... They very much get treated like slaves
Every few hours the taco truck comes by, the field empties as everyone goes to get a coke and taco etc.
Oh, by the way, most farm workers do not work for the farmer. The reason why field workers are for the most part un unionized is that the Farm Workers Union is incredibly corrupt and most workers don't want anything to do with it.
Nah you must be nuts if you expect me to believe that nonsense ...
... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
$25 an hour .. LMFAO .. you have a special mind.. a very creative one
Oh, you came back? Thought you said you were finished with this thread?
btw., my home-base property is also adjacent to intense agriculture served by immigrant labor ... I interact with these families often ... they DO earn fairly high on piece work, depending on the crop and season ... the other side of the story is that is short-lived work and so the averages aren't good. The work is hard, conditions aren't good. And yet these tend to be families that show great love and humor among themselves and who are by and large quite polite and gracious to anyone around them who doesn't treat them with disdain. The workers I have known over many many years (I am an old guy) working the Skagit Valley vegetable farms and eastern Washington fruit orchards, and the sheet-rockers and painters and laborers I've known in the construction industry are pleased as punch to be working. They laugh a very great deal and work their behinds off seemingly with genuine pride and gusto and still find time to immerse themselves in family. Go figure. Compare to the typical American earning better in a cubicle. Their lives are hard by middle-class American standards. They suffer from emotional distress. They get angry and make mistakes and do harmful things to each other at times. I am not saying they are "happy and enlightened" ... I'm saying they compare at least as well, in spite of their struggles.
My point isn't that the conditions for these immigrant labor workers are good, nor safe as they could/should be, nor is the pay good ... my point is: some people just like to whine, no matter what they've got ... others are thrilled to be in the game at all ... who would you rather be around?
Oh, but I forgot: these lowly don't contribute to the economy in any real "scale". Is it really money that makes the world go round now? Or is it just plain heart and soul -- the way it has been since the dawn of time?
Oh, you came back? Thought you said you were finished with this thread?
btw., my home-base property is also adjacent to intense agriculture served by immigrant labor ... I interact with these families often ... they DO earn fairly high on piece work, depending on the crop and season ... the other side of the story is that is short-lived work and so the averages aren't good. The work is hard, conditions aren't good. And yet these tend to be families that show great love and humor among themselves and who are by and large quite polite and gracious to anyone around them who doesn't treat them with disdain. The workers I have known over many many years (I am an old guy) working the Skagit Valley vegetable farms and eastern Washington fruit orchards, and the sheet-rockers and painters and laborers I've known in the construction industry are pleased as punch to be working. They laugh a very great deal and work their behinds off seemingly with genuine pride and gusto and still find time to immerse themselves in family. Go figure. Compare to the typical American earning better in a cubicle. Their lives are hard by middle-class American standards. They suffer from emotional distress. They get angry and make mistakes and do harmful things to each other at times. I am not saying they are "happy and enlightened" ... I'm saying they compare at least as well, in spite of their struggles.
My point isn't that the conditions for these immigrant labor workers are good, nor safe as they could/should be, nor is the pay good ... my point is: some people just like to whine, no matter what they've got ... others are thrilled to be in the game at all ... who would you rather be around?
Oh, but I forgot: these lowly don't contribute to the economy in any real "scale". Is it really money that makes the world go round now? Or is it just plain heart and soul -- the way it has been since the dawn of time?
Someone requested I come back and give feedback .. so, against a decision I made,I did... Namely to call b.s to the claim that people make around $25 an hour.. No, they are lucky if they make between $8-10.50 an hour... As identified by my information dump .. The conditions are bad .. they do work a great # of hours. Compared to their home country where people are getting shot up and living in squaller .. it is a better life. So, they are happy (relativity) .. Mexican culture is strong on family .. family is a powerful force.
They contribute relatively nothing to the tax base compared to the drawn down they make when they consume services. If Americans were employed (wages go up by some 30-40% in studies i this happen), the impact on groceries would be a 10-12% gain. The impact on social services would offset this and the need for tax revenue would offset (+some) the impact.
For someone who comments about judgement language .. you sure seem to do a lot of it... Labor isn't beneath me so you are preaching to the choir ..
The conditions for the workers isn't good ... One anecdotal farm across from you doesn't represent the larger picture which is that conditions aren't good.. they are 'better' than their home country ... and that 'better' is still horrible by American standards ..
As for the farmer's perspective .. i.e - highnlite .. I get it .. you dont want to give up your slave labor that ensures your prosperity.. We get that.. you'll make it sound like they are treated like kings in order to defend the thing that brings you income... We get that .. You'll make it sound like you are doing a humanitarian service.. We get that .. You'll ignore the significant cost that is dumped on tax payers and social services for these people because it shows how you take more profit by offsetting this cost on others.. We get that.. and we also get that its a load of b.s as a result.
Null....As for your judgement of, I think the world would much rather be trending towards American standards of living than to Mexican standard of living.. So, speak for yourself. Money buys a lot of things... Including time/money. Your judgement doesn't apply to someone who lives on bare necessities .. enjoys : family/friends/nature just like the mexicans you reference but has sh*t ton more money that is converted to more time/freedom to enjoy life. Just because the people you like to defend so much do idiotic things w/ their money once they make it .. doesn't mean that making money and more of it is bad..No, the usage of it to buy junk is bad .. Given that people do good things with it .. the opportunity to make more of it should always exist and thus it is not a bad process.... If you think it is and everyone should be working labor.. Go move to mexico ...
That term 'whining' again.. I love it....
You have your views.. assemble people like yourself and pay for them yourself and stop forcing others to yield their money in support of your ideas and you'll find how little people care about what you do and endorse w/ your own $$$ in your personal life....
As for me, that's why I use my real-world accurate views on such matters to invest/trade companies that exploit the myopic and idiotic decisions people make .. because I dont have the ability to prevent them from raiding my pockets.. From making dumb decisions.. I do have the knowledge of it .. So, I use the time honored function of turning that into $$$ .... and, So, I dont whine .. I take action which gets my money back .. and yeah, I like to point out the flaws/falsehoods in people's beliefs from time to time .. Whining .. pfffft
Whining is for those who aren't empowered ..
Last edited by yeahthatguy; 10-13-2011 at 10:24 AM..
Someone requested I come back and give feedback .. so, against a decision I made,I did...
Ah, the honored "guest speaker" position
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Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
As identified by my information dump
Perfect term for most of what you post.
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Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
So, they are happy (relativity) .. Mexican culture is strong on family .. family is a powerful force.
What a concept, huh!
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Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
They contribute relatively nothing to the tax base compared to the drawn down they make when they consume services. If Americans were employed (wages go up by some 30-40% in studies i this happen), the impact on groceries would be a 10-12% gain. The impact on social services would offset this and the need for tax revenue would offset (+some) the impact.
Crap. You have no idea what the impacts would be ... because any savings on social services would never come back to your pocket, or anybody's. If anything, if there were lower social service costs for the country resulting in lower tax burdens, average wages would be reduced because of more money being retained in the American workers' paychecks ... employers won't pay a dime over what the market demands ...
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Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
For someone who comments about judgement language .. you sure seem to do a lot of it... Labor isn't beneath me so you are preaching to the choir ..
Yes. I don't mind stupidity and ignorance too much ... I mind intelligent arrogant minds ... people who have the gifts and tools to be gracious -- but who instead live by conceit and bigotry -- racial and otherwise ... in your case: financial and educational. No respect for the human spirit in all its forms at all its "levels" as you like to define them.
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Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
The conditions for the workers isn't good ... One anecdotal farm across from you doesn't represent the larger picture which is that conditions aren't good.. they are 'better' than their home country ... and that 'better' is still horrible by American standards ..
There's no "farm across from me" ... the two moderate sized communities I exist within most often are farm-based communities heavily reliant on temporary and migrant labor. I have been a working adult in these communities more years than you have been alive, let alone an adult in the workplace.
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Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
Null....As for your judgement of, I think the world would much rather be trending towards American standards of living than to Mexican standard of living.. So, speak for yourself. Money buys a lot of things... Including time/money. Your judgement doesn't apply to someone who lives on bare necessities .. enjoys : family/friends/nature just like the mexicans you reference but has sh*t ton more money that is converted to more time/freedom to enjoy life. Just because the people you like to defend so much do idiotic things w/ their money once they make it .. doesn't mean that making money and more of it is bad..
Here's the essence of our differences: all the more money "we" make doesn't appear in the slightest to translate to more freedom to enjoy life ... study and report after study and report conclude that the American worker is putting in more and more hours for less and less leisure and pleasure. All the while our happiness quotients are plummeting ... as is the quality of our behavior and mental and spiritual health. So, f**k money, pal. It is a necessary abstraction in any society beyond hunting - gathering ... but that doesn't make it a religion based in actual revelation experience. It is a false religion, pretty much like all the church religions.
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Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
No, the usage of it to buy junk is bad ..
Agreed!
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Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
Given that people do good things with it .. the opportunity to make more of it should always exist and thus it is not a bad process.... If you think it is and everyone should be working labor.. Go move to mexico ...
It doesn't take money to "do good things" ... it takes heart and soul and sweat and effort. And, No, I won't move to Mexico. I am quite happy where I am. You're the one complaining about things here ... not me. Go move to Switzerland ... go move anyplace ... just go.
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Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
... So, I dont whine ...
All you do is whine, kid.
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