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Old 11-21-2011, 05:57 PM
 
7,151 posts, read 4,022,694 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
Spare me - the point is that morality is subjective - and that moral authority is also subjective. What is moral or immoral for you may not be for someone else.

You don't get to define morality for everyone else. That is exactly why the law applies to everyone equally - because people like you believe the law should apply differently depending upon who it is applied to (you just said as much when you told us all what is and is not moral - as though you have that authority).
More utter nonsense from you ... Yes, I absolutely will say that non-violent civil protest is a defensible position and that lynching is immoral in any sane person's definition in any civilized culture such as we live in ... the one within which these protests are occurring.

Moral authority is defined by the culture within which it is expressed. So, while Sharia law may consider certain behaviors acceptable that American culture and law do not, no one in these protests is expressing anything in the slightest bit similarly inconsistent with the foundations of our dominant culture and nation. In fact, I would add that the authoritarian opposition to the protest is morally indefensible in a society such as we live in. Grossly hypocritical.

You don't believe otherwise ... you just love to argue ... and you have a bone to pick with me personally. Pick on someone as small-minded as yourself, kid.

 
Old 11-21-2011, 05:59 PM
 
7,151 posts, read 4,022,694 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Or maybe they were simply making a statement using non-confrontational, non-violent civil disobedience. Under those circumstances it was a peaceful gathering seeking redress for grievances; i.e. tuition hikes. If you ever read it, you might find some mention of that in a dusty, obscure document called The Constitution.

There are better ways to deal with a situation like that than O.C. spray, especially when applied injudiciously, at dangerously close range and repeatedly to the point of saturation. That's called "overkill." Had they wanted to merely break up the circle of intertwined students there are simple, pain-compliance pressure holds that would have loosened their grips on one another to allow them to be separated. They do no damage whatsoever and the pain stops immediately upon release. Hell, I've been out of the cop business for over 20 years now and I remember how to apply them.
Not only do we agree, but that is several times in one day ... where will it all end?!
 
Old 11-21-2011, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,141 posts, read 15,470,363 times
Reputation: 6449
What should happen to the chancellor?
 
Old 11-21-2011, 06:25 PM
 
4,293 posts, read 3,439,255 times
Reputation: 3742
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
Doubt the police union or anyone sane is going to come to his defense. Be like coming to Sandusky's defense. Spraying UC Davis Aggies with pepper spray? sheesh.
If it's within policy the union will back him. Difficult to justify firing someone if they are following policy.
 
Old 11-21-2011, 06:33 PM
 
4,293 posts, read 3,439,255 times
Reputation: 3742
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
Oh, and don't forget the taliban and global warming too.... sheesh.
So I take it you disagree that state employee pensions, illegal immigration, californiandream act have not made a negative financial fiscal impact on our state? sheesh.....
 
Old 11-21-2011, 06:49 PM
 
1,570 posts, read 840,478 times
Reputation: 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
More utter nonsense from you ... Yes, I absolutely will say that non-violent civil protest is a defensible position and that lynching is immoral in any sane person's definition in any civilized culture such as we live in ... the one within which these protests are occurring.

Moral authority is defined by the culture within which it is expressed. So, while Sharia law may consider certain behaviors acceptable that American culture and law do not, no one in these protests is expressing anything in the slightest bit similarly inconsistent with the foundations of our dominant culture and nation. In fact, I would add that the authoritarian opposition to the protest is morally indefensible in a society such as we live in. Grossly hypocritical.

You don't believe otherwise ... you just love to argue ... and you have a bone to pick with me personally. Pick on someone as small-minded as yourself, kid.
I understand, you did say you get violent when you're challenged, perhaps a forum where people are allowed to have opinions different than yours isn't a healthy place. I'm sure it insults your sense of importance.

Sane is irrelevent - moral authority is what it is, doesn't have to make sense to you.
 
Old 11-21-2011, 06:51 PM
 
1,570 posts, read 840,478 times
Reputation: 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Or maybe they were simply making a statement using non-confrontational, non-violent civil disobedience. Under those circumstances it was a peaceful gathering seeking redress for grievances; i.e. tuition hikes. If you ever read it, you might find some mention of that in a dusty, obscure document called The Constitution.

There are better ways to deal with a situation like that than O.C. spray, especially when applied injudiciously, at dangerously close range and repeatedly to the point of saturation. That's called "overkill." Had they wanted to merely break up the circle of intertwined students there are simple, pain-compliance pressure holds that would have loosened their grips on one another to allow them to be separated. They do no damage whatsoever and the pain stops immediately upon release. Hell, I've been out of the cop business for over 20 years now and I remember how to apply them.
Could be, I'm no cop, I do know there are the continuum of force guidelines departments use, I suppose that would be where to look for U.C police, see if pepper spray comes before going hands on.
 
Old 11-21-2011, 06:59 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
7,670 posts, read 4,148,862 times
Reputation: 6177
I have to say... this was uncalled for. And I'm not even much of a OWS supporter. Many of the same people who callously dismiss the actions of government agents on a group of students who were not threatening or attacking anyone would be the first to brandish their shotguns and squeal as soon as "their rights" are infringed upon by the government.

If the students did not move, then that's where police can and always have forcibly picked them up and put them in the paddy wagon for a trip to the local jail. And if students actually attacked a police officer or were destroying property like some did in Oakland, then the use of pepper spray and other force would be justified. But this was nothing of the sort. The only thing they were "assaulting" was the sidewalk. "Not moving" may be grounds for arrest, but it IS NOT "assault".
 
Old 11-21-2011, 07:05 PM
 
1,570 posts, read 840,478 times
Reputation: 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
I have to say... this was uncalled for. And I'm not even much of a OWS supporter. Many of the same people who callously dismiss the actions of government agents on a group of students who were not threatening or attacking anyone would be the first to brandish their shotguns and squeal as soon as "their rights" are infringed upon by the government.

If the students did not move, then that's where police can and always have forcibly picked them up and put them in the paddy wagon for a trip to the local jail. And if students actually attacked a police officer or were destroying property like some did in Oakland, then the use of pepper spray and other force would be justified. But this was nothing of the sort. The only thing they were "assaulting" was the sidewalk. "Not moving" may be grounds for arrest, but it IS NOT "assault".
So what type of force should the police have used to separate the protesters who had interlocked their arms?

Police have continuum of force guidelines, just because you are passively resisting, doesn't mean the police can't use force to effect an arrest (since some degree of force would be necessary to effect the arrest).

This is an example from wikipedia:

1. Physical Presence
2. Soft Hands
3. Mace or Pepper Spray
(A K-9 unit would fall here)
4. Hard Hands
5. Police Baton, Taser, etc.
6. Threat of Deadly Force
7. Deadly Force
 
Old 11-21-2011, 07:15 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
7,670 posts, read 4,148,862 times
Reputation: 6177
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
So what type of force should the police have used to separate the protesters who had interlocked their arms?

Police have continuum of force guidelines, just because you are passively resisting, doesn't mean the police can't use force to effect an arrest (since some degree of force would be necessary to effect the arrest).

This is an example from wikipedia:

1. Physical Presence
2. Soft Hands
3. Mace or Pepper Spray
(A K-9 unit would fall here)
4. Hard Hands
5. Police Baton, Taser, etc.
6. Threat of Deadly Force
7. Deadly Force
They should have done what police historically always do during a protest: physically pull them apart and pick them up for a trip to the paddy wagon. And if they resist or assault the police officers at that point, THEN you are justified in using the pepper spray. NOT before when they're just sitting there. The cop was completely nonchalant about it, as if he was watering his lawn. He was under no threat, and he certainly wasn't even trying to pull them apart or arrest anyone since he was sauntering up and down the row with his spray can.

Is pepper spray supposed to be the first tactic that the government should employ on anyone who protests, whether you agree with them or not, whether they have harmed anyone/anything or not? Do you think they should have pepper sprayed Rosa Parks when she refused to get up on that bus too?
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